Permanent Queens – Why all the hate? by Skidfoot

Skidfoot wonders why permanent queens are not as loved as those who returned to their warrior duties.

Art by Cat-Patrisiya

2 years ago, on the Warriors Wiki, I posted a blog about permanent queens. For those of you who don’t know, a permanent queen is basically just a she-cat who decides to stay in the nursery and care for kits instead of going back to warriorhood. I’m pretty sure most people already know that but hey, might as well say it anyway.

I decided to share (and edit) my 2-year-old post here, because I still really like it. Without further ado, here it is.

I’ve always been so irritated about people saying that permanent queens, mostly Daisy and Ferncloud are useless. And my question is… why? Admittedly, I used to think they were useless as well, but honestly, I can’t judge. Yes, Daisy was very paranoid, and complained a lot. Yes, Ferncloud spent more time as a nursery queen than a warrior. No, neither of them are useless, and I’m very ticked off at the fact that Ferncloud was killed off because of fan demand. I really wish that she didn’t die, only because fans wanted her to die. However, it makes a little bit of sense because she was in series one and would have been pretty old by now. At least she’s in StarClan with Dustpelt now.

Here are the common reasons I usually see/hear of when people express hatred for at least one permanent queen.

Laziness/Uselessness – One reason why people would hate permanent queens is because they say the queens are lazy. All they do is lay around and “pretend” to take care of kits. Excuse me, do you even know how hard it is to care for mischievous troublemakers? I’m pretty sure a queen doesn’t lay around all day, expecting prey to be delivered to them and allowing her kits to escape camp or annoy elders/warriors. We don’t know what they do on a daily basis. Also, if queens are still pretending to take care of kits, then I’m guessing you call nursing for a queen who can’t produce milk “pretending.” If there were no permanent queens and a currently nursing queen couldn’t produce milk, guess what? One of two things will probably happen. The kit will die, possibly before it can even open its eyes, or, two Clans will have to make a huge decision of either a queen from a different Clan moves to the Clan with the kit(s) that needs milk which’ll make the kit think that the queen from the rival Clan is their mother, or the kit moves to the Clan temporarily and the biological mother has a huge risk of losing her kit because the kit will believe it is from the rival Clan.

Kit-machine – This is mostly directed on Ferncloud. I’ve heard that she’s a useless/bad queen/character because she’s a “kit machine.” I don’t get it. She’s considered a kit machine because she gave birth thrice. Why is she the only kit machine? Robinwing gave birth to three litters and nobody batted an eye, probably because she wasn’t a permanent queen. And then Ferncloud gave birth to seven kits, almost half (Because there can never be a half-kit) of which died before warriorhood and she’s hated on for it. Sorreltail gives birth to two litters/six kits in which only one dies before warriorhood and she’s loved. Don’t get me wrong, I like Sorreltail very much, but I don’t see why Ferncloud is bad for having nearly the same amount as Sorreltail. It’s a one kit difference. And “kit-machines” are actually good for the Clan. It means more warriors!

Over-protectiveness – I don’t see why people hate any kind of queen for being over-protective. It’s how all queens act, so why are they disliked for it? Should the queen just let her kit wander outside camp and get risk being eaten by a fox, snake, or badger? No! It’s better to be over-protective instead of not being protective of your kit at all. Plus, isn’t it common for mothers and fathers nervous about their children fighting their first battle? After all, battles are like a deck of cards. You don’t know what you’ll get. In this case, one of three possibilities: Ruffled up, badly wounded, or death. It’s painful to see your child go into their first battle, where they risk being killed. And before anyone says that they are so overprotective that they want to basically pamper their kits in lieu of letting them fight for their Clan, I believe that the kits’ll probably be old enough to tell their parents how they feel about being pampered.

So, to conclude, I’m pretty sure permanent queens are not a waste of time and space or are kit-machines. They are there to service their Clans. Yes, they should be a bit more participative, but we don’t know what they do on a regular basis. Besides, they’re technically like the cat-versions of stay-at-home moms. You wouldn’t give a stay-at-home mom (or dad) mouse-dung, would you? Also, if you disagree with anything I said above, please be respectful. The last thing I need is cranky users getting mad at my opinion!

Many thanks!

  28 Replies to “Permanent Queens – Why all the hate? by Skidfoot”

  1. Moonlight Shining on Turkey (Moonpaw/Moonbreeze)
    November 21, 2017 at 3:22 am

    This is an amazing article. You are quite right!


    ๐Ÿ’— ์ด์ œ ๋„ˆํฌ ํ•˜๋‚˜ ๋‘˜ ์…‹ ๐Ÿ–ค

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  2. Spark Whose Tooth is Chewing the Turkey (Sparktooth is so creatve when it comes to names)
    November 21, 2017 at 3:39 pm

    I totally agree! I’ve never hated any permanent queens, because I actually found their character and desire to do that very interesting. I also wrote an article a lot like this, explaining why Ferncloud did not have too many kits. ๐Ÿ™‚

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  3. Bright Orange of Autumn Leaf (Brightkit)
    November 22, 2017 at 7:31 pm

    Exactly! I don’t know why permanent queens get so much hate! I LOVE Ferncloud (neutral on Daisy). Well, the only thing I don’t like concerning Ferncloud is the creepy age gap between her and Dustpelt, but otherwise Ferncloud herself is an amazing character (Dustpelt is okay)!

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  4. Ravenmist
    July 24, 2018 at 11:31 pm

    Queens are very important to the Clan! I agree with you that protectiveness is a good thing, In the first arc, one of my favorite characters was Frostfur, who was a queen most of the time.

  5. Shadowdapple (is now Leafsong)
    August 2, 2018 at 2:10 am

    I AGREE WITH THIS SO MUCH. I never understood why people hated permanent queens either! And I never knew Ferncloud was killed off because of fan-hate?!?!? That’s terrible! Some of the things you mentioned in this article that people complain about gets me so confused. Like over-protectiveness. How is that BAD? Don’t you want your parents to want to protect you? And a maternal anger is a natural thing! I don’t even get it….also I know this is really old like from last year but I felt the need to comment because I feel passionate about this subject as well XD

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  6. Crystalpaw
    August 22, 2018 at 1:48 pm

    This is a great article, and I agree! Why would they receive so much hate? I’m pretty sure the only reason Ferncloud had 3 liters of kits is because all her kits keep dying! And then they killed her off too. Daisy has also earned my respect because it’s VERY hard to keep kittens safe. โ€œOurโ€ cat, who is actually wild and we just feed her, gave birth to 4 litters of kits. Would you hate a real cat like her for that?! All but 2 kits disappeared after a few days because they always wander off where they’re now supposed to! I bet if she were in a clan nursery with Daisy and Ferncloud, her kits would have survived.


    Christmas is life

  7. Cookie
    October 7, 2018 at 4:25 pm

    I think people hate Ferncloud and Daisy is more due to how they are written than the fact they were permanent queens. Compared to the permanent of the first series they are very winy and helpless “Firepaw could see Frostfur and Goldenflower clawing and biting at a huge gray tom. Even the young tabby queen Brindleface was fighting, though she was very close to kitting.”(hunter 192-193). Warriors: Into the Wild. They were good mothers and fierce warriors. I also think the writers could have made Ferncloud more significant to the plot. Add a scene where her nurturing side is the very thing needed to save the day. Having her be the one to go after Poppyfrost and reassure her that Berrynose loves her in the first book of the Omen of the stars series. I think it would have worked better if Ferncloud was the one to go after Daisy in New prophecy, when she returns to the horse place. Daisy could have confined in Ferncloud about her feelings for Cloudtail, and it would have given readers a chance to see her side. Having Ferncloud be a mother figure to cats in need of some nurturing. Such as having her reach out to Blossomfall when Millie pushes her away. I think people would have liked Daisy more if she had been like Clovertail from Skyclan’s Destiny and recognized something bigger than herself and her kits. Perhaps she steps up to protect another queen in the nursery. We sort of get that in the Last Hope, but it was fourteen books after she joined Thunderclan. We never really got see Ferncloud as a warrior.

  8. Cj
    October 7, 2018 at 4:28 pm

    With Daisy it seemed like the Erins were breaking their own rules. When Firestar joined Thunderclan Bluestar made it clear that he had to pull his own weight. Same in Skyclan’s Destiny with Clovertail. I do not see why Daisy gets out of warrior duties. She is an abled-bodied cat there is no reason for her to be exempt from warrior duties.

  9. Feathereyes
    December 2, 2018 at 8:25 pm

    I actually have a permanant queen OC named Saffron, who used to be a Kittypet. She’s a permanant queen because her front claws were removed, so she couldn’t train to be a warrior. She didn’t want to be a Medicine Cat, so this is what she does. I love permanant queens!

  10. Coral
    December 12, 2018 at 1:58 am

    I think fans hate Daisy and Ferncloud more for their personalities than for the fact they are permanent queens. The queens in the first series are permanent queens, but they are very strong “Firepaw could see Frostfur and Goldenflower clawing and biting at a huge gray tom. Even the young tabby queen Brindleface was very close to kitting.”(Hunter 192-193).-Warriors: Into the Wild.
    Ferncloud and Daisy become very hysterical at first sign of danger and whine very often which becomes very annoying after a while. I wouldn’t mind it so much if they out grew it. Being hysterical seems pretty out of character for Ferncloud, considering how brave she was in the first series. It is sad that all the courage she had disappears after series one. She had a lot of potential when she first introduced as this sweet but, brave apprentice.
    Just because they embody feminine traits doesn’t mean they have to be damsels in distress type characters. Just because they are permanent queens doesn’t mean they have to stay out of the action. Look at Mrs. Incredible (The Incredibles), Molly Weasley (Harry Potter), and Sakura Haruno (Boruto). All three are stay at home moms and take part in the action.

    Up until “Warriors: Omens of the stars: Last Hope”, Ferncloud got sidelined in every battle. In the battle with Bloodclan, at Dustpelt’s request she is given a job to keep her out of the action. In New Prophecy, when the badgers invade Thunderclan; she is allowed to fight for a little while then is told to go hide with Daisy. In Power of Three, during the battle that place before the eclipse; she is once again sidelined. At this point you can’t help but wonder if Dustpelt made some sort of deal with Firestar to keep her out of battle.

    I feel Erin Hunter wasted her potential as a character. It would have been awesome if Ferncloud refused to be sidelined during the badger attack of New Prophecy, and insisted on protecting Sorreltail and her kits. Part of caring for kits is protecting them from danger. Another way Erin Hunter could have utilized her character, to have Ferncloud be the one to search for Poppyfrost in the first book of Omen of the stars. This would have shown Ferncloud looking out for the well being of other queens. Poppyfrost would have confided in Ferncloud about her insecurities in her relationship with her mate, and Ferncloud would have comforted her. Another way opportunity to utilize Ferncloud’s nurturing side for the greater good would have her become a maternal figure to Blossomfall when she is feeling neglected. Ferncloud would have helped Blossomfall work through her complicated feelings of neglect, grief, insecurity, lack of self-worth, and jealousy. She would have told Blossomfall that she doesn’t deserve to be in the Dark Forest because she jealous of her sister, and jealousy is a natural feeling that every cat feels sometimes. Ferncloud could also help Millie learn to express her grief in ways that don’t hurt other cats and to be more empathetic to others’ feelings. This would have brought closure to the Blossomfall/Briarlight/Millie drama and shown Ferncloud’s wisdom.

    The main problem with Daisy is she breaks the rules of the established warriors world. In Firestar’s quest it was made clear that queens had to learn to fight and could not join the clan just for protection. That is why Sandstorm pushed Clovertail to learn to hunt and fight. Daisy doesn’t even really try. She had one lesson with Cloudtail, which she spent most of the time flirting; and then quit. Yes, she finally takes part in the battle of “The Last Hope”; but that is thirteen books after she is introduced. There is no reason for her to be exempt from learning how to hunt and fight, she is an abled bodied cat. Firestar didn’t get an easy pass when he joined Thunderclan. He had to train hard and be willing to fight or Bluestar was going to send him back to the Twoleg place. Some people might argue that Firestar is a boy and Daisy is girl, but shouldn’t both boys and girls be held to the same standard?
    I always thought that Daisy should have become Ferncloud’s apprentice in “Power of Three”, this would have given readers a chance to see her overcome her softness and be willing to protect her clan. It also would have given Ferncloud a chance to mentor an apprentice.

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  11. Peggy
    January 5, 2019 at 11:31 am

    Daisy and Ferncloud seem to fail at protecting kits. The original three(Jayfeather, Lionblaze, and Hollyleaf) leave camp to fight foxes in Power of Three. Briarkit nearly gets eaten by snake. If it hadn’t been for Honeyfern, she would not have had a story arc in Omen of the stars. Why weren’t Ferncloud and Daisy watching her? Why wasn’t Millie watching her? We never see Daisy and Ferncloud play an active role in caring for the kits. In Power of three it was Jayfeather who put mousebile on the kits’ ticks not Daisy or Ferncloud. Daisy doesn’t even try to make Toadkit behave while Jayfeather is checking him for ticks. When the clan is short of apprentices, Daisy and Ferncloud could easily volunteer to pick up the slack. Checking elder’s for ticks and clearing bedding would not require them to leave camp. Instead of Firestar making Cherrykit and Molekit apprentices early, Ferncloud and Daisy could have helped pick up slack. I am pretty sure Poppyfrost could do without one of them for a short period of time. There is no reason Ferncloud and Daisy can’t gather moss. Ferncloud is trained for hunting and fighting. She could do one patrol a day and still have time to help nursery queens. Furthermore, it never was clear in the books that Ferncloud and Daisy chose to be nursery queens out of a desire to care for other queens and their kits. It came off they chose to be in the nursery to avoid harder/dangerous tasks. It isn’t until Omen of the stars, that we see them actually express concern for other queens. As, Bluestar mentioned in the first series learning to fight and protect the clan is a part of clan life. Getting to join the clan is a privilege not a right. Daisy doesn’t learn to fight until Omen of the Stars Last Hope, years after she first joined Thunderclan. There is no reason for her to be excused from Clan duties. Firestar earned his place in the clan, Daisy got an easy pass.

    While providing the clan with more warriors is a good thing, having all the cats come from one queen isn’t a good idea. Eventually, the only cats the junior warriors would have to chose from as mates would be their siblings. Sorreltail only had two litters not three. The Erins reimpregnating Ferncloud got old fast. She is in the nursery in Firestar’s quest, raising her second litter in New Prophecy, and following New Prophecy at the beginning of Power of three she is once again nursing kits. Let another she-cat have a turn. We never really got to see Sandstorm and Brightheart as queens. It would have been interesting if they were in the nursery in Power of three. In the first series and Bluestar’s prophecy queens were switched out. Most of Ferncloud’s kits die before they can become interesting characters.

  12. Laura Croft
    January 7, 2019 at 10:36 am

    The problem with Ferncloud and Daisy is that the ideals of femininity they represent are too outdated for girls of this era. Daisy swoons at the first sign of danger, and Ferncloud tends to be hysterical at times. Mrs.Beakly from the 80s Ducktales had a similar personality. Disney changed her character for the 2017 reboot because they knew a female character that faints at the sign of danger would be too outdated for audiences(particularly girls) of today. Girls don’t want read stories where female characters are sidelined from the action. Gone are the days of damsels in distress like Snow White and Bella Swan, todays world is dominated by heroines like Merida and Katniss.

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