![[in a realistic style, a blue design of Bluestar crouches in grass and looks out to the audience]](https://blogclan.katecary.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Bluestar.png)
Fan ArticlesMellowix takes a look at Bluestar’s actions from the series.
The Fandom often praise Bluefur for stopping Tigerpaw attacking Tiny – However what’s not brought up enough, is that Bluestar took the exact same role as Thistleclaw years later, not once but twice, taking place Into the Wild.
What I’m speaking about, is Bluestar standing aside as Rusty is attacked by Greypaw and Longtail. Regardless of the fact, Rusty was almost apprentice-age, he’s still considered a kit and has to be remain unharmed according to the Warrior Code. Lionheart himself called him this: “Bluestar is only offering you training, young kit.”
What’s worse is the fact, it was also Greypaw’s first day as an apprentice – “Tonight is my first night out as an apprentice”. For all intents and purposes, Greypaw is a kit as well. How many mentors would allow an untrained kit to attack another kit? This situation was too dangerous for both young cats – Greypaw had no discipline when it came to his fighting yet – He could of gone too far and seriously hurt his foe. Then Rusty was a kittypet, inexperienced with any violence, so was especially helpless. He’d have to reply solely on his fight or flight response to battle Greypaw, which could of gone wrong as well. There was too much uncertainty to this battle for Bluestar and Lionheart to allow it.
The fight between those two kittens was more violent than any legal training sessions, with claws unsheltered and bleeding wounds: “Twisting and yowling, he tried to throw off the attacker that had fastened itself to his back. It was gripping him with incredibly sharp claws. Rusty could feel spiked teeth pricking at his neck. [….] “The pain from his scratches stung beneath his fur.”
And participants being violently thrown around: “The creature hit him like an explosion and Rusty was thrown sideways into a clump of nettles. […] He heard a“hhuuffff” beneath him as the breath was knocked out of his attacker. Thrashing fiercely, Rusty managed to wriggle free.” […] “Then the kitten crashed into Rusty at full pelt. Taken by surprise by Rusty’s turnabout, it fell back into a dazed heap.”
Other leaders didn’t allow apprentices with little to no training into fights. Though they weren’t technically kits anymore, those Leaders understood they’re close enough in age to need a degree of protection. For example, Pinestar only allowed Bluepaw and Snowpaw to destroy herbs in Windclan camp with an escort in Swiftbreeze. The sisters’ apprentice ceremony literally happened that same day, just like Greypaw. Secondly, Sunstar didn’t want Redtail’s litter, who had serval weeks of training, to take part in a Sunning rocks battle.
Bluestar and Lionheart were capable of preventing the fight between Rusty and Greypaw from happening since the beginning. Rusty spotted Lionheart before Greypaw even appeared: “Rusty stood very still and looked around. He could see thewhite tip of a red bushy tail trailing through a clump of tall ferns up ahead. […] He kept his eyes fixed on the strangered fur up ahead, and continued to creep onward.”
Lionheart could have ordered his apprentice to stop. Then Bluestar admitted to them purposefully doing nothing: “You fight well for a Twoleg pet,” Bluestar meowed. Rusty and Greypaw exchanged confused glances. How could she know?“We have been watching you both. We wondered how you would deal with an intruder, Greypaw. You attacked him bravely. […] “You reacted well to the attack, kittypet. Greypaw is stronger than you, but you used your wits to defend yourself. And youturned to face him when he chased you. I’ve not seen a kittypet do that before.”.
Then, it gets much worse with Longtail, who’s a fully grown warrior. Also taking place in the middle of a crowd, where spectators have to actively get themselves out the way to remain safe. Anyone from an apprentice to an Elder, could have got caught in the crossfire and injured because of it.
Similar to how Thistleclaw encouraged Tigerpaw to attack first, Lionheart did the same for Rusty, “Do you backdown from a challenge?”. This is the same cat who Bluestar chooses as her deputy hours later after Redtail’s death. Bluestar says nothing thought out the fight, not even laying down safety restrictions since it shouldn’t be a real fight.
Carries on to do this, even when: Claws are unsheltered: “Rusty dug his claws deep into the tabby cat’s fur and sank in his teeth. No subtle rituals of swiping and boxing preceded this fight.”
Participants were screaming, almost crashing into bystanders: “The two cats were locked in a screaming, writhing tussle that flipped around the clearing at the heart of the camp. The other cats had to spring out of the way to avoid the screeching whirlwind of fur.”
The Warrior almost strangled the kitten with its collar, generally putting his life in danger: “Longtail had gipped it between his teeth and was tugging, and tugging hard. Rusty felt a terrible pressure at his throat. Unable to breathe, he started to panic. He writhed and twisted, but each movement only made the pressure worse. Retching and gulping for air, hes ummoned up all his strength and tried to pull away from Longtail’s grip.”
Both cats had bleeding wounds: “Clumps of fur hung from their ruffled coats. Rusty could feel a cut stinging above his eye. Longtail’s left ear was badly torn, and blood dripped down his lean shoulders onto the dusty ground.”
Another example of a warrior violently fighting a young cat, is Ashfur and Lionpaw. In that case, the apprentice had serval moons of training, so was somewhat capable of defending himself. However even then, their Clanmates are shown to be unsettled by it: “They’re hurting each other!” Hollypaw turned to Brackenfur. “Can’t you make them stop?” […] “That’s enough.” Brackenfur bounded forward, his voice sharp with shock. “Ashfur, let him up. Lionpaw, sheathe your claws. This bout is over.” […] Cinderpaw and Poppypaw exchanged glances; they both looked too shocked to say anything. Even Hollypaw couldn’t bring herself to congratulate her brother. The way the practice session had turned savage had disturbed her”.
If it considered unethical for Lionpaw to be fighting his mentor in that matter, it should be the same for Rusty, who’s much younger and has no training. Untrained Outsiders have never needed to fight to earn their way into the Clans, specially kits. This isn’t apart of Time period either. When Boulder and Russetfur (Red at the time) joined Shadowclan, older than six moons, Cedarstar didn’t make them fight anyone. Which was years before Rusty was even born. Neither were Millie or Daisy expected to do it either. Proving that Rusty being endangered to fight a fully grown warrior was not even traditional and unnecessary on Bluestar’s part.
Then finally, despite taking down the tyrant Brokenstar, for that very reason, Bluestar apprenticed underaged kits in Cinderkit and Brackenkit. Greystripe even pointed this out in front of her: “But none of Frostfur’s kits are six moons yet!”. What’s worse, is she didn’t do the same with Thornkit and Brightkit – Creating unnecessary favouritism and jealousy among the littermates. Then considering the other two weren’t made apprentices until a Book later, meaning Brackenkit and Cinderkit weren’t even 5 moons, possibly even younger at 4 or 3 moos old.
An extra fact that isn’t brought up enough for Bluestar, is her leaving apprentices without mentors for long periods of time. She never gave Rusty a proper mentor until moons into his training, then never gave Greypaw a replacement mentor after Lionheart’s death.
🩵🦅 Eagleflight (Aquila)🍃🎶
![[a full-body design of Ravenwing uneasily looking over her shoulder alongside her colour palette]](https://blogclan.katecary.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/ravenwing-warrior-cat-designs.png)
Wow, great article! I hadn’t thought of that stuff before!
Agreed! I think most of us overlook these scenes and when you analyze them their meanings really change.
Yes! Though I am a big fan of Bluestar, I think this article is amazing and contains original thoughts!
Nice article!
Wow! I don’t like Bluestar, and I have my many reasons, but I wasn’t expecting this and was expecting more along the much more common lines of how she acted when she lost her faith and went a little crazy, so this was a great and enlightening read! I’ve never thought about this before (although, admittedly, I’ve also only read Into the Wild and all of the Warriors books that I’ve read once, but still)! You researched a lot, and gave plenty of textual evidence, even going so far as to mention other generations. While I believe this is a mistake on the writers’ and editors’ parts more than it is true to who Bluestar is, I must give you the highest praise for your unique, well-thought-out, and well-researched article!
I agree, it’s probably just an aspect of the first book (apprentice fighting kit) that they either forgot about or changed because they realized it doesn’t make sense for a new apprentice to fight a kit/young apprentice aged cat. And yeah, the mentoring system was very weird back then. Sandpaw and Dustpaw were made apprentices before Firepaw and Graypaw, but the latter two became warriors first.
(but… just a thought, maybe part of the reason Graystripe ignored his mentoring duties wasn’t just that he was sneaking off to meet Silverstream, he also didn’t fully know how to mentor Brackenpaw because he’d never gotten that far into training with his own mentor…)
Nice article!
I actually quite like Bluestar. She’s a really good leader, and honestly one of the best characters in TPB.
Silverstream defenderwow, looking at it now i completely agree with you!
I don’t really agree, but I would also like to point out that, for both times, there were responsible cats around who could have stopped the fighting if it went too far. It is made clear in the Bluestar’s Prophecy manga that Bluestar did not believe Rusty would be accepted if he backed down from the fight. Plus, If someone was seriously hurt, there was a medicine cat right there. As for letting apprentices out on their own on their first night, THEY WERE FOLLOWING HIM. He was not alone, and if he was ever in any real danger, we have every reason to believe that, being his leader and his mentor, they would come to his aid with teeth and claws if necessary. Even though they were capable of stoping the fight from the very beginning, Bluestar’s Prophecy established that Bluestar already was curious about Rusty, and this fight would have been the perfect test, with the two of them being able to stop the fighting if it really did go too far.
Bluestar also set their confrontation up, as in she asked Graypaw to go out into the forest alone to prove her theory that Rusty was the cat from the prophecy, if I remember correctly.
No other outsider had to prove themselves before, like Boulder and Russetfur. If Bluestar wanted Rusty to prove himself; she should have setup a training spar. This means with another apprentice and in the controlled area of the training hollow. Instead, she stayed silent as Lionheart encouraged Rusty to crash into a large crowd, filled with vuneriblue members like elders and full-out attack his future Clanmate.
Longtail didn’t agree to it and Rusty didn’t even know the basics to creating a safe fight. Getting it wrong can be fatal – Brownkit and Wetkit got a double attack wrong in training, leading to Mosspaw’s death. Since he’s was only 3 moons older then them, Rusty was at risk as well, which is why the Kit protection rule exists in the first place.
The battle was going too far the moment they were drawing blood, which is strictly against training protocol for a reason. However, Bluestar sat there was the entirety of the fight – It was up to Rusty to beat down his opponent. Considering Rusty was generally suffocating and there were permeant scars like Longtail’s ripped ear – This was dangerous fight, not a training spar. A Medicine cat would be no good if Bluestar failed to stop Longtail before he choked Rusty to death with his collar.
The same things can be said for Greypaw V Rusty – Neither young cat had a shred of training to battle safely. Even after the two kits were: Being thrown through the air, crashing into things, collapsing and bleeding – Lionheart and Bluestar didn’t bother to do anything until it had blown over to an ideal conversation.
Also, as a additional point for the first paragraph – Whenever clanmates get into violent arguments, whether its apprentices or warriors, they’re always told to stop. For example, Ashfur v Lionpaw, Oakheart v Crookedjaw, Greystripe v Fireheart, Shrewpaw v Tallpaw, etc. Fighting amongst clanmates is discouraged against. So what is it going to do for Rusty’s social status, when his first introduction is him attacking his clanmate during a meeting? It will also gives Rusty a false impression of the Clans, thinking it’s a common practise for clanmates to attack each other over insults, when it’s not.
Great article, but I still like Bluestar!
Definitely something fishy going on there…
EVIL BLUESTAR.
It was probably better that Bluestar pared Rusty up against Graypaw, though. I’ll admit, it would be been better if she’d chosen Ravenpaw, but don’t forget: At least it wasn’t Dustpaw of Sandpaw or Bluestar or Lionheart themselves. Bluestar could have sent any warrior out there, but she chose the closest age match. Ravenpaw is the only thing better because he is gentle.
Lionheart encouraged Rusty to fight Longtail because Lionheart wanted the clan to accept Rusty. Longtail was clearly taunting Rusty about being a former kittypet, and the clan would’ve thought Rusty weak if he had backed down.
Also, don’t forget what Doestar did to Goosefeather. She apprentices him to Cloudberry at four moons old, but didn’t apprentice Moonflower until she was six moons old.
Great article? What? Did anyone here actually read the books?
I’m sorry, but there’s no level on which this works beyond a surface-level “Tiny and Rusty were written to have similar backstories.” It’s a false equivalence that breaks apart from a very concise difference: Graypaw would not have killed Rusty.
Graypaw might have hurt Rusty in some accident, but such would have been an accident from a cat about Rusty’s size who wasn’t exactly looking for a violent brawl, and all of it would have had to somehow slip through Lionheart’s watch, the cat who caught Pinestar meeting with kittypets and convinced the leader to be honest with the clan.
Compare this to Tigerpaw who was being explicitly trained by Thistleclaw to be a killing machine. Tigerpaw was much larger than Tiny (and older), knew EXACTLY how to torture and maim the kit, and Thistleclaw had no intention of stopping him before things went too far.
Let’s actually look at the text for Bluestar’s Prophecy just to further out why that’s an asinine comparison:
“[Thistleclaw, Tigerpaw, and Bluefur] pushed through the grass and emerged in a sunny fling at the ground. As the three Clan cats advanced, [Tiny] spun around, eyes wide.
‘Hello.’ He blinked happily, tail high.
Tigerpaw bristled, and Thistleclaw had already unsheathed his claws.”
(Let me interrupt the quoting to point out that you’re pretty much lying in saying that them walking up to Tiny with the intent to fight him is the same thing as Lionheart goading Rusty to accept a challenge from someone blatantly instigating a fight.)
(Skipping dialogue, which has Thistleclaw even scold Bluefur for being “too soft” on intruders, even after she pleads that Tiny is a kit.)
“Tigerpaw lunged at the kit, sending it flying like a piece of prey. The kit skidded across the rough earth and landed, gasping for breath.
[i]Get up![/i]
Tail bushed in terror, the kit tried to scramble to its paws. But Tigerpaw pounced again. The tabby apprentice pinned the kit to the ground. With claws unsheathed, he swiped at his muzzle, then raked its flank. The kit squealed in agony.
‘Show it your teeth, Tigerpaw,’ Thistleclaw goaded.”
(I REALLY don’t need to continue here, since it’s painfully apparent that this is a far cry from “prophecized cat has a sparring match against a peer who blatantly stops to lick his paws after literally one attack and an accidental crash,” but I’m going to keep going, since it’s it gets worse.)
“Tigerpaw sunk his teeth into the kit’s shoulder and hauled it to its paws. The kit yowled and struggled, its paws scrabbling helplessly on the ground until Tigerpaw, his eyes cleaming, flung him away.
No!
Blood welling scarlet along his wounds, the kit pressed his belly to the ground as though he wished he could just vanish. Tigerpaw padded grimly towards it.”
At what point is ANYTHING Graypaw did remotely close to ANY of that? At what point did Graypaw lift Rusty into the air, fling him around like a ragdoll, and walk over to him while he was cowering in place? it sure wasn’t Into the Wild.
Are you really saying it’s hypocrisy to not want to see a kitten get brutally mauled to death, but not have a problem with the class clown trying to chase away a kittypet that, reasonably, can break free and either run away or fight back?
I really need to apologize for my tone here, but you’re pulling quotes from the books, so you have access to this information as well. THIS should not need to be explained, at all!
You’re putting words into my month. Never once did I say this was a one-to-one comparison to Tiny’s attack. I was making the simple observation, that Bluestar has personally condemned the breaking of the kit endangerment rule – Yet she herself: allowed Rusty in a battle twice and apprenticed Cinderpelt and Brackenfur before they were 6 moons old. That’s the definition of hypocrisy.
This isn’t a competition between Tiny and Rusty, on who had the most brutal mauling. Just because one was worse then the other, doesn’t make the incidents with Rusty magically innocent. Greypaw or Longtail didn’t need to specially aiming for the kill, for it to be wrong – Any attack on a kit is breaking the Warrior Code.
And there’s a good reason for this. When training goes wrong, specially for kits, it can lead to fatal accidents. Brownkit and Webkit killed Mosspaw for getting one move wrong and they were only 3 moons younger then Rusty. And the battles Rusty were in, wasn’t even training – It was full-out fights.
Rusty and Greypaw are completely untrained when it comes to a safe fight. First, there were bleeding wounds. When Lionpaw, who was moons older then Rusty, was fighting with his mentor, their clanmates were shocked and ordered them to stop. Which should be evident in of itself. What happened to Rusty should not be scoffed at, he literally being thrown into trees, Greypaw collapsed in a winded heap and both of them were bleeding from multiple spots.
You just admitted yourself Greypaw could have accidentally injured his less physically-fit kittypet opponent, which was very real possibility. He’d literally never done it before. Lionheart in not some infallible cat, he can be sneaked past. Which happened, considering Greypaw was later scolded by him for hunting near the Twoleg place without his permission.
It doesn’t matter if Longtail was spitting insults – It’s clear-cut that an untrained kit should to be allowed to engaged in a full-out battle with a grown warrior. Despite Rusty’s young age, the fight he paripanted in was so brutial, Longtail received permeant scars thanks to his ears being badly torn.
And yes, Rusty almost died – He couldn’t breath for a long period of time. Did Bluestar utter a word during that time? No. It took the random event of the collar snapping to stop it.
Less grandstanding, more critical thinking.
“Never once did I say this was a one-to-one comparison to Tiny’s attack.”
Notice that I didn’t say you were; I said that trying to compare the two as being remotely similar is egregiously asinine.
The whole point of saying that it’s hypocritical implies that two events are remotely comparable, otherwise it’s a blatant use of the accident fallacy, or in layman’s terms removing the exception. It would be tantamount to saying “it hypocritical for somebody who doesn’t believe in slavery to believe that criminals should go to jail” or “vegans who don’t eat meat because they don’t believe in taking life are hypocrites for eating plants.”
And, no, Rusty did not face some brutal attack that left him cowering in fear. Again, let’s go see what the books state, this time Into the Wild:
“The creature hit [Rusty] like an explosion and Rusty was thrown sideways into a clump of nettles. Twisting and yowling, he tried to throw off the attacker that had fastened itself to his back. It was gripping him with incredibly sharp claws. Rusty could feel spiked teeth pricking at his neck. He writhed and squirmed from whisker to tail, but he couldn’t free himself. For a second he felt helpless, then he froze. Thinking fast, he flipped over onto his back. He knew instinctively how dangerous it was to expose his soft belly, but it was his only chance.
He was lucky – the ploy seemed to work. He heard a “hhuuffff” behind him as the breath was knocked out of his attacker. Thrashing fiercely, Rusty managed to wriggle free. Without looking back he sprinted toward his home.”
Let’s get two things out of the way right now, Rusty is not a kit whenever he was attacked (hence he’s large enough to break off of Graypaw), and that passage was literally the extent of Graypaw’s attack.
No puddles blood drawn, no serious moves other than threatening grip. That’s it. Neither of them are “literally being thrown into trees,” or “collapsed in a winded heap and both of them were bleeding from multiple spots” or whatever other dramatization you’re trying to sell here. The most Rusty gets is a couple of scratches behind his ear.
And calling that a “full on fight” is ridiculous. IMMEDIATELY afterwards, Graypaw’s first conscious decision on the matter after they face each other again is to sit down, relax, then compliment Rusty; the whole thing is a gentle warmup to him, and the only reason Rusty takes it so dramatically is because he’s literally had no other encounters with cats whom, he believes, are viscous savages that eat bones (not too far from what Thistleclaw was, actually). Graypaw even acknowledges that he was incapable of doing anything serious to Rusty (“Oh, I’m far from the most dangerous. If I were even half a warrior, I’d have given an intruder like you some real wounds to think about.”).
Let’s look at the next part of your reply that’s jumping out as a red flag:
” and apprenticed Cinderpelt and Brackenfur before they were 6 moons old.”
It’s a break of the Warrior Code, sure, but calling it even remotely close to anything Brokenstar did is a hilarious memory lapse.
ThunderClan was short on warriors (notice that this is the reason she cite in Into the Wild for allowing Rusty to join. Even without knowledge of the fire prophecy, Lionheart and Graypaw agree with the notion) and the forest was relatively peaceful after Brokenstar fell. Bluestar thought she wouldn’t need to put the cats in any serious danger. She messed up by misunderstanding the risks (and it costs Cinderpelt her leg), thinking she could stabilize her clan.
Brokenstar was actively mobilizing his clan for warfare, and even successfully drove out WindClan shortly before. Not only was his training more brutal than standard apprentice training with more emphasis on battle, but there was an active guarantee that those kittens were going to be put in danger. It wasn’t some one-off break, he actively wanted conscripted kits to throw into the front lines.
Let’s move onto the next comparison you tried to make that isn’t retreading on Brokenstar or whatever gorefest you think happened to Rusty:
“When Lionpaw, who was moons older then Rusty, was fighting with his mentor, their clanmates were shocked and ordered them to stop.”
Let’s go lightning round on this one:
-Ashfur and Lionpaw were both ThunderClan cats; allowing them to fight means infighting in ThunderClan, hence Brackenfur has more reasons to break them up.
-Ashfur is a warrior who knows Warrior moves, and Lionpaw knew a few as well. Both were trained well enough that they could seriously hurt each other. Graypaw is an apprentice who only knows the basics, and Rusty does not know any real moves besides instinctively running away. Graypaw is so clumsy that he accidentally runs into Rusty, whose in turn is so naive that he turns around while trying to run away.
-Ashfur and Lionpaw were actively slashing each other and drawing blood. The most Rusty gets is a couple of scratches behind the ear, and Graypaw lets out a “huff” after falling down.
-Ashfur and Lionpaw did not have any sort of stopping point for their fight, meaning they could have gone until they were seriously injured. Rusty could have left the fight without serious injury since confrontations with kittypets usually only need the kittypet to leave the territory. A couple of hisses can end a confrontation with a kittypet; a couple of hisses would not have ended Ashfur and Lionpaw’s fight.
-Ashfur and Lionpaw were going beyond their duties for training and actively fighting. Even if Rusty and Graypaw hurt each other, no such provisions exist to protect Rusty.
That last one is also what’s wrong every single time you bring up the fight with Longtail, besides the fact that there’s no evidence that Longtail intended to go through with actual murder instead of Rusty yielding.
Anyway, let’s go to the part where YOU exhibit a bit of hypocrisy by putting words into my mouth:
“You just admitted yourself Greypaw could have accidentally injured his less physically-fit kittypet opponent”
I admit that Graypaw could accidentally hurt Rusty in the way that a white-belt martial artist can injure a higher rank, by a loss of control against their opponent leading to an accident, not by being some active threat to an opponent. In actual martial arts, the burden to hold back in training usually falls onto the higher-ranked party, meaning that they’re responsible for protecting both themselves and the lower belt.
Graypaw and Rusty are two white belts wrestling each other. Hypothetically they “could” injure themselves in the same way that that going outside is dangerous because an earthquake “could” happen suddenly and cause both of them to plummet into a fissure.
Using the martial arts metaphor, Tigerpaw is a purple belt walking up to a toddler and throwing him around. Whatever dangerous precautions an inexperienced fighter might have is much less of a threat than someone actively looking to seriously cause injury.
That seems to be a big thing you don’t understand here about ANY of these examples; you don’t understand the intent for malice behind them.
Anyway, let’s get onto a continuity note:
“Which happened, considering Greypaw was later scolded by him for hunting near the Twoleg place without his permission.”
Graypaw’s purpose for being there got retconned into scouting for Rusty. There is a way in which no conflict is present in that Lionheart scolds Graypaw for hunting, not for being near Twolegplace.
Anyway, onto the next part that’s leaping out to me:
“It doesn’t matter if Longtail was spitting insults – It’s clear-cut that an untrained kit should to be allowed to engaged in a full-out battle with a grown warrior.”
STOP SAYING RUSTY IS A KIT.
Stop. Just stop. He is literally Graypaw’s age. He’s untrained, sure, but he’s not a kit.
As for the actual fight, I have nothing to add that wasn’t covered before (specifically where I mentioned that Rusty is an outsider here) other than “it would be in Bluestar’s interests to allow the fight to continue to gauge Rusty’s skills, and Longtail knows that he doesn’t not need to kill in order to win the fight.”
Lionheart literally calls Rusty a kit during the Greypaw encounter. Then Rusty refers to himself as a kitten in his PoV.
Even then, a name change doesn’t make them less helpless. Pinestar didn’t make Bluepaw and Snowpaw fight in the Windclan raid a few hours after they left the Nursery – He made them destroy herbs with Swiftbreeze as an escort.
Anyway, we’re honestly really overcomplicating this whole thing. We don’t need to be throwing paragraphs of quotes at each other. My argument was very simple when it came down to it;
Brokenstar apprenticed underaged kits – Bluestar critiqued him for this – She apprenticed underaged kits a few moons later.
Thistleclaw goaded Tigerpaw to attack untrained kit – Bluestar critiqued him for this – She allowed Lionheart to goad Greypaw and Longtail to attack an untrained kit. *Ahem*Almost choked by collar*Ahem*
Definition of hypocrisy: a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not : behavior that contradicts what one claims to believe or feel
You made the mistake, just because Bluestar “wasn’t bad” and did the “lesser versions” of Thistleclaw and Brokenstar’s actions, somehow what she did fine. When it wasn’t, by apprenticing of underaged kits, regardless of the excuses you come up with – Is breaking of the kit endangerment code – The very same code Bluestar took action against others for breaking.
Rusty is six moons. He’s not a kit. He’s literally the same age as Graypaw. Tiny is young enough that the idea of being adopted hasn’t crossed his owners’ minds yet; he’s not even two months old.
You’re seriously trying to draw a comparison between a cat that’s the age of a clan apprentice fighting against his peer to a kit that’s not even two months old. That’s not “overcomplicating” things, that’s looking at the actual events in the books.
Just stop. Stop digging yourself into a hole.
And speaking of digging holes, let’s skip ahead to the WindClan part.
“He made them destroy herbs with Swiftbreeze as an escort.”
I don’t know where to start with this one, so I’ll just start listing the first problems things that come to my head:
-That has ZERO relevance to anything we are talking about. Is the point that apprentices sent into in battle can get hurt? Might as well have said “Well Crookedpaw got hurt in a fight against Bluepaw and Snowpaw” for how little relevance this has since Bluestar never sent Brackenpaw or Cinderpaw into battle.
-You didn’t even get their roles right; Bluepaw and Snowpaw were placed under Swiftbreeze and Featherwhisker’s orders so that they could assist wounded cats. Destroying the herbs was the MOST dangerous role in Pinestar’s attack; Pinestar didn’t put new apprentices in the front lines of battle and neither did Bluestar. Again, only Brokenstar did.
-Pinestar did not face an extraordinary shortage of kits in a relatively peaceful period. ThunderClan was raising several new warriors during his time.
-Bluestar never ordered Rusty to fight Longtail or join ThunderClan. Lionheart goaded him to ‘accept a challenge,’ which Rusty interpreted to mean ‘fight.’ If you really want to play the blame game, Rusty is an intruder coming into Bluestar’s camp and attacking her warriors; literally any other leader would be in the right to side with Longtail, Bluestar being the exception because the prophecy gives her a reasonable assumption that Rusty will be okay.
-And before you say “but Bluestar LET the fight happen,” go back to the previous post I made and pull any one of the points from the prior list that you evidently did not read.
I think that’s enough, and I really want to get to the part that threw what patience I had left out of a skyscraper.
“Anyway, we’re honestly really overcomplicating this whole thing. We don’t need to be throwing paragraphs of quotes at each other.”
Are you joking?
Actually respecting the context for what someone’s talking about isn’t “overcomplicating things.” Similarly to this, I can turn around and say that your entire point is ‘over-SIMPLIFYING’ things, except in this case we can point to tangible differences that actually matter like ‘you’re comparing the attempted murder of a two-month-old kit by a sociopath to a sparring match between a coddled cat (who she knew was prophecized to be able to ‘save her clan’) and an apprentice who stops after literally one attack.’
There’s a handful of terms that I can throw out there for what you’re doing including “lying by omission.” None of them could be remotely called “honest.”
To address the other portion, I’m “throwing around quotes and paragraphs” because actually looking at the books dispels your points. Literary criticism is best made with respect to the details presented in its source material, not by calling their presence “overcomplicating things” and completely forgetting them. At that point, you’re not criticizing the books or the characters within them; you’re attacking your own creation loosely based on the original source.
It’s okay for you to think your /interpretation/ of “Bluestar” is a hypocrite, but it’s a mistake for you to claim that this is the same character within the books when the books outright conflict with your recollection of events.
(Sidenote: the whole idea that someone ‘throwing around paragraphs’ is a vice on a blog about a literal book series baffles me.)
“Bluestar critiqued him for this”
Brokenstar declared that kits that were five moons old were Warriors and actively used them to try to coerce hunting rights on the other clan’s territories, while stealing kits from enemy clans to conscript.
You’re trying to paint Bluestar in the same light as that for doing the least egregious part of Brokenstar’s code-breaking, and even then she did it, again, without the intent of sending those apprentices out into the middle of a war (much less a war from those kits’ native clan) and in the middle of a shortage of apprentices in her clan. But apparently remembering what happened is “over-complicating things” so let’s move on.
“Thistleclaw goaded Tigerpaw to attack untrained kit”
Thistleclaw didn’t have any intention of stopping Tigerpaw from murdering a kit, a kit who wasn’t even two moons old and posed zero threat to ThunderClan. Thistleclaw wanted Tigerpaw to at least maim the kit to “teach it a lesson” and WANTED to see the kit get mauled (he called the notion of letting it go “too soft”).
Graypaw was never going to kill Rusty in any capacity unless he started firing “Graypaw Laser Beams” out of his eyes or something ridiculous like that. He didn’t have the skillset nor the intention to, and he didn’t leave more than a couple of scratches on Rusty.
Longtail knew the Warrior Code and knew that he didn’t need to kill Rusty to win the fight, and Bluestar and Lionheart knew he wouldn’t have went that far regardless.
But, again, apparently remembering context and pesky things like “Tiny was the only one who was in any real danger” is “over-complicating things,” so let’s move on…
“and did the “lesser versions” of Thistleclaw and Brokenstar’s actions”
Have you read one word typed against you, or did you just divert your eyes into a Dr. Suess book instead? It’s not “lesser versions” of what they did, it’s looking at why the Thistleclaw and Brokenstar broke the code and on what level they broke it (which is hilarious, since Graypaw confronting Rusty and chasing him is in perfect compliance with the Warrior Code, but Tigerpaw killing Tiny breaks the “no warrior can neglect a kit in pain or danger” and “an honorable warrior does not need to kill other cats to win their battles” rules).
Again, you keep omitting the motivations for why Thistleclaw and Brokenstar did their vices besides the details, and trying to paint everything too broadly.
That sets up a terrible precedent that lets us say anything about any character (so long as we ignore the “overcomplicated” details). Watch: “Tallstar is a hypocrite because he thought his home was in the moorlands, but eventually lead WindClan across the mountains.” “Firestar is a hypocrite because he believes he doesn’t need to kill in order to win fights, but kills Scourge.” “Every single Clan cat that gets into a fight with a rat pack is a hypocrite because they don’t kill the rats to eat them.” Do I need to go on?
Hey there, you two, remember to remain civil in debates ^^
I’m trying. If my tone is slipping, it’s because I don’t have patience for people who believe they can lie to my face, or people who argue in bad faith and only pretend to read responses against them.
mellowix literally tried to dissuade from actually pulling material from the books to support their point. There’s only so much that the rest of us can work with when talking to someone who is literally asking that people don’t pull quotes from the books when talking about books.
I understand but I have to say that if this escalates, the both of you will be asked to take this conversation off the blog. It’s getting a bit too aggressive on both your sides. You have the liberty of time when commenting on the blog and enough time to look over your comment make sure that this doesn’t get out of hand ^^
I won’t reply to this your next comment, so this doesn’t escalate, but I will have this parting explanation, so we’re all on the same page.
I asked for us to stop using quotes, because it was getting out of hand. The comments were getting longer then the article itself. Those are fictional characters we are discussing. It’s not like we are debating serious real-world topics, so you can’t expect people to be fully whole hearted about it. The accusations of “lying” and “Bad faith” are exaggerated and not appropriate for this situation. I don’t appreciate you personally critiquing me over fictional characters.
“I asked for us to stop using quotes, because it was getting out of hand.”
There is nothing wrong with citing a quote from either the source of the discussion in order to present supporting evidence, or a quote from the other party in the case of addressing a relevant point directly.
With regards to the former, there’s practically no other way for someone to talk about this subject other than just bouncing their own subjective take on it, which nobody has any reason to care about without some backing. I find less value in my opinion than whatever objective information can be used to support it.
With regards to the latter, it’s basic discourse. Anything said by either person is fair game to be reviewed by the other. In taking accusations of lying and arguing in bad faith as personal attacks, you completely sidestep the issue of why those are vices in the first place; that your article is intentionally wrong.
( Trying to say that I’m not addressing the article itself is blatantly false whenever my progression throughout this has been to address the misrepresentations it presents, then subsequently address the excuses you presented to defend the article by doubling back to what media you’re trying to critique actually says. If you want to keep the discussion on-topic, then don’t lambast someone for “throwing paragraphs of quotes at each other” and “overcomplicating” things by pointing out where your article falls short. You’re literally trying to do what you’ve accused me of doing. )
Hello, people! I’m going to ask you to cut this conversation short, as one of you has expressed a desire to leave the conversation and the other has moved from a discussion of Bluestar to a discussion of their opponent. Please remember that, regardless of the opinions each of you might have about the people you’re talking to, this is a blog where civility should reign. A lot of younger people are on this blog and we should all try to set a good example for being respectful and civil debaters. Thank you. ^^
One parting explanation calls for another.
The entire point of “throwing paragraphs of quotes” befell to keeping the conversation on-topic by examining your article, the parts of the books it claims to mention, and then back to the unreasonable standard your article sets up.
The point of critique is to highlight some aspect of a work of media which the critic sees, not misrepresent their subject to suit their own message. Criticism that falls apart when held against the media its examining is borderline useless. To launch an admittably personal attack for a moment, every time I’ve presented something from the books to be completely objective while addressing the article, you’ve turned around and handwaved it.
On the subject of criticism, if there’s no point to discussing the characters because they’re fictional, and thus aren’t worth the effort, then we can take this a step further and say that there’s no point to writing an article on them, or even reading fiction in the first place.
People value fiction for a myriad of reasons. A lot of people see elements from it as a stand-in for aspects of the real world. A lot of people see the characters and their aspirations and actions and either relate to them or like to understand them. Any one of those reasons if fair grounds for discussion, since it addresses what causes people to connect to imaginary cats.
You don’t get that in examining your misrepresentations of Bluestar’s actions, you’ve given me and anyone else an outlet to showcase her motives for those events, speculation on Brokenstar’s effect on the forest, and fling around some interesting timespans regarding character ages.
That in itself is enough to write a detailed standalone article (I refrain from doing so only because it invites a broader “apprentices in battle” topic, which I don’t have the time to recollect extensively to make it more than a response post).
But I digress. If you want to change your mind on the whole “not going to respond” thing, consider instead making an entry on your deviantart page (assuming that you own the Mellowix account on there) to respect the moderator’s wishes.
While I don’t agree with everything you’re saying, I really liked reading this new perspective on Bluestar! It’s really heartbreaking to read Bluestar fall into a deep depression, and soon losing sight of what she believed in (like not apprenticing underaged kits), but i think overall without her, the ending of the prophecies begin would have a very different outcome.
AMAZING article!
This article is amazing!!! It really changed my view on Bluestar, and showed that she did some bad things, and wasn’t perfectly good, witch in my opinion is mind-blowing (Even though it happens to me alot😉) . I like these types of articles where they don’t just say their opinion, but also share evidence to support it, and that makes it so much more believable!
Again, amazing article, Mellowix!!!
I never thought of that! (Then again, I didn’t read Bluestar’s prophecy until after I read PoT