Is Ashfur really evil? by Eagleflight and Redblaze

Eagleflight and Redblaze talk about Ashfur and his actions.

Art by baimon2000

Eagleflight and Redblaze debate about whether Ashfur is evil or just misguided.
Redblaze: Hello! I am arguing that Ashfur is not evil.
Eagleflight: Hi everyone! Ashfur is obviously evil so I’m going to convince Redblaze that he is.
Redblaze: So, to start off, threatening to kill someone and actually doing it are two very different things.
Eagleflight: But he still threatened them and the only reason he didn’t was because he was too scared.
Redblaze: I don’t believe that. I think he was driven mad by his rejection and was probably prepared to do it but soon realised that this was not the right course of action.
Eagleflight: Ashfur deserved to be rejected. He’s awful.
Redblaze: How would you feel if the love of your life rejected you?
Eagleflight: I would probably murder them and then get over it.
Redblaze: So you’re saying that he should have murdered Lionblaze, Hollyleaf and Jayfeather?
Eagleflight: No he shouldn’t- that’s why he’s evil because he almost did.
Redblaze: That’s like saying Bramblestar’s evil because he almost helped Hawkfrost kill Firestar.
Eagleflight: Bramblestar is good! Bramblestar is awesome!
Redblaze: Ashfur just went into extreme depression and thought that the only way to get rid of that would be revenge. He realised soon afterwards that it wasn’t. This doesn’t make him evil, it just make him kinda sad.
Eagleflight: Ashfur IS sad.
Redblaze: Sad isn’t evil.
Eagleflight: Yeah but he was mean to Bramblestar- that makes him evil.
Redblaze: Okay then, Squirrelflight is evil too.
Eagleflight: But Squirrelflight’s amazing!
Redblaze: Okay let’s get back to Ashfur. Squirrelflight had no regard for his feelings whatsoever.
Eagleflight: He doesn’t deserve to have feelings. Anyway, Squirrelflight is way better.
Redblaze: We all make mistakes. Ashfur never actually did anything evil. He just threatened to because he felt hurt and scared.
Eagleflight: We all feel hurt and scared sometimes, we need to learn to get over it.
Redblaze: Everybody deals with different feelings in different ways. Just because you react badly to a rejection doesn’t make you evil.
Eagleflight: But he kept that grudge for literally years.
Redblaze: So what if he’s a grudge holder? In the end, he didn’t act on it and that’s what matters.
Eagleflight: So why did he tell Hollyleaf that he would reveal their secret at the gathering?
Redblaze: I’m not sure he was actually going to. If he wanted to why did he tell her? He must have known she would try to stop him. He was probably just angry or scared and wanted her to feel some of that.
Eagleflight: That makes him evil because he wanted Hollyleaf to feel angry.
Redblaze: Wanting someone to understand your emotions is not evil.
Eagleflight: But they’re bad emotions. That’s wanting someone to feel bad.
Redblaze: He didn’t necessarily want her to feel bad. He just wanted her to understand.
Eagleflight: How on Earth can you spell necessarily? I can never spell that word.
(Redblaze is the one typing all of this with input from Eagleflight)
Redblaze: I have to work it out in my head first.
Eagleflight: Oh that makes sense.
Redblaze: Right. All I’m saying is Ashfur is not evil. He just wanted understanding and happiness but was denied it.
Eagleflight: There were plenty of cats who he could’ve been happy with but he chose to take revenge instead.
Redblaze: I think Ashfur believed that Squirrelflight was the only cat for him and that he’d never find someone else like her.
Eagleflight: He’s really narrow minded.
Redblaze: He wasn’t narrow minded. He was just crazy with pain and grief. Seeing Lionblaze, Hollyleaf and Jayfeather just made it worse because he thought of the kits HE could have had with Squirrelflight.
Eagleflight: If he had kits with Squirrelflight, I would rip the books apart.
Redblaze: That’s quite strong.
Eagleflight: Ashfur was prepared to kill Lionblaze, Hollyleaf and Jayfeather. That’s too much.
Redblaze: I don’t think he was though. He didn’t in the end did he? I think part of him considered it and he convinced himself that he was going to. But, he wasn’t evil enough to actually do it.
Eagleflight: That’s not goodness. He was just too scared.
Redblaze: In that fire scene did he seem scared?
Eagleflight: He must have been good at hiding his emotions.
Redblaze: I don’t think he was if he threatened to kill them.
Eagleflight: He was putting on a brave face.
Redblaze: Now you’re saying that he believed he was doing the right thing.
Eagleflight: Well don’t evil people believe they’re doing the right thing all the time when they’re doing something evil.
Redblaze: Not necessarily. Ashfur didn’t do this for an evil reason like power. He just did it because he was suffering and he thought this was the way to stop that suffering.
Eagleflight: Isn’t taking it out on other cats evil?
Redblaze: We all take our anger out on others. This doesn’t make us evil.
Eagleflight: I think I’m evil and I take my anger out on other people.
Redblaze: I’ve never actually seen you angry.
Eagleflight: It takes a lot to make me absolutely mad.
Redblaze: Shall we end it here then?
Eagleflight: Yep bye everyone!
Redblaze: Post in the comments your feedback and who you think you agree with!

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111 comments

  • I’m with Aquila, just because someone breaks your heart doesn’t mean you get to cook their children in retaliation, and I’m pretty sure he was definitely willing to do it. (Even if he wasn’t going to do it, having your heart broken doesn’t give you an excuse to threaten to murder people either. He still put them in danger.) That pretty much shows he was willing to do anything to hurt Squirrelflight back, and if that doesn’t count as evil I don’t know what does 😛

    • Just because someone is feeling depressed doesn’t mean they are incapable of making their own choices and it doesn’t justify attempted murder or murder itself. Ashfur still chose to help Hawkfrost kill Firestar and he still decided to try and kill Squirrelflight’s children. He only stopped because he could hurt her more in another way. It wasn’t out of the kindness of his heart or anything else. He wanted to see four cats who were all completely innocent suffer because he couldn’t handle the fact that Squirrelflight was her own cat and could make her own choices. He wanted to control and hurt her for something he had no right to be upset over and I think that the deliberate attempt to harm as many innocents as he did is evil no matter what his excuse is.

    • I agree with that! But I don’t like Ashfur at all 😛
      Thanks!! 😀

    • Eh, I have mental health issues and I would never intentionally hurt someone if they rejected me. I’ve said this many times over, but mental illness is almost never an excuse for your own bad actions (excluding genuine insanity pleas in criminal trials). If Ashfur was a human and were to go to trial, an insanity plea would not work as one of the main requirements is not being fully aware of what you’re doing. Ashfur was. He was fully aware of his actions and purposefully kept them hidden and planned them out in advance. I know you didn’t mean it this way at all but using mental health as an excuse for evil acts just contributes to stigma and hurts people with mental illness more. 🙁

      • ^^tbh, defending ashfur’s actions based on potential mental health issues makes me feel really uncomfy, because i have mental health issues like goldi, and the idea that characters who have attempted murder only did it based on a mental health condition tends to further the stigma that mentally ill people are more prone to violence (we aren’t! mentally ill people are more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators)

        Additionally, even if, let’s say, he really just is angry or misguided or lonely, he still needs to take responsibility for his actions. If i lash out due to my anxiety or start ignoring others when i’m feeling really down, it’s my job to explain myself and apologize to the people i’ve hurt, and to work to manage my symptoms. It’s not my fault that I have issues with my mental health, but it’s my responsibility to take care of myself and others, so I need to apologize and do better if I hurt someone – and those are actions that aren’t nearly as bad as murder! But i still can’t use it as an excuse.

        So to see ashfur’s actions being waived away due to anger, sadness, etc, feels irresponsible and like a way to justify his poor decisions

        tl;dr – blaming ashfur’s murder attempts on mental health can be damaging to our community, and it is unfair to excuse his actions based on his emotions

        • Sorry for the late reply! Thank you for acknowledging your mistake. I didn’t think you had any bad intentions with your comment. 🙂

  • Ashfur was definitely not “the good guy” and certainly not misguided. I noticed that in the article that it was stated that “he didn’t act on it.” Actually, he did. Remember how Ashfur worked with Hawkfrost? Firestar lost a life. Ashfur did kill someone, even though that’s often pushed to the side since Firestar had other lives. I’ve made this point before, so I’m not going to go too into it. It’s also stated in the article that he “soon realized that this was not the right course of action.” Ashfur did not believe that. If he realized that he shouldn’t kill his Clanmates because well, he shouldn’t, he would never have attempted to kill Hollyleaf, Jayfeather, and Lionblaze. He could have decided to stop seeking to cause Squirrelflight emotional pain after the incident with Hawkfrost, but he continued along the path of revenge. And even though he was hurt, that does not exclude him from taking the blame for committing terrible actions. But, everyone’s opinion is their own 🙂

    Also, this isn’t related to Ashfur, but wanting to have power does not necessarily make you evil. Take Bluestar for example. She wanted to be leader, but that doesn’t make her evil. The same goes for Hollyleaf when she was Hollypaw. Ambition is not what makes a person (or cat) evil, but how they rise to power and what they do with their power can cause them to be. (Ex: Tigerclawstar, Brokenstar)

    And just to reiterate: We all have our own opinion 🙂

  • I don’t really think Ashfur is EVIL, but I also don’t think he’s good. Evil would be actually killing a bunch of cats. However, good would be accepting that Squirrelflight choose someone else and moving on, and taking joy that your were still friends with her and being able to be proud of mentoring one of her “kits”.

  • I woke up to see this on the front page! 😛
    Redblaze’s arguments are way better than mine!

    Oh and I’m Eagleflight, I just used my warrior name (idk why) on this article! 😛

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