Fan ArticlesSpottedpaw discusses Bramblestar’s mental state in A Starless Clan.
Hi, this is spottedpaw, and this is my …. Third? Fourth? Article. This is my article about Bramblestar in River. SPOILERS FOR ASC.
Having Bramblestar face a cognitive decline in ASC is probably the smartest thing the Erins could have done from their perspective.
So here’s their situation as of when they would have been planning ASC:
The entirety of the current arc they are publishing at the time (the broken code) focuses on bringing Bramblestar back to his body and back to life – A light in the mist was completed during December 2020. But guess what came out about 2 months before a light in the mist was completed? Moonkitti’s Bramblestar is worse video. Now the belief that Bramblestar was an abusive partner escaped from being the subject of some online posts mainly heralding from Tumblr, and was presented to a large portion of the fandom – with evidence to back it up.
Almost overnight Bramblestar went from behind widely viewed in an at least somewhat positive light to a character that was downright despised by the fandom at large. Which was very likely very problematic for the Erins since they just wrote 6 books about this guy being brought back to his body.
They probably hoped that the distaste for Bramblestar would fade but it didn’t – it just got stronger – to the point where Bramblestar has now become one of the least popular warriors characters. So by the time a starless clan planning time came round the Erins had quite the dilemma on their hands I reckon, now they had a situation where Mr 8 lives left Bramblestar just made his triumphant return to his body, but a large majority of the fandom outright disliked the guy. So what to do?
Well they can’t just kill him after spending all that time bringing him back. Not to mention he has 8 lives left.
They can’t suddenly have him turn evil or become an outright bad leader after piling the praises on him and his leadership for the last 6 books.
But given how fatigued people are with his character at this point they can’t keep him in power for another 8 lives either if they want people to keep tuning in.
So at this point they don’t have many options left. But then someone likely had the idea of making him have some sort of cognitive decline. So far this looks like this is going to lead to Bramblestar being removed from power or stepping down voluntarily. Which like I said is pretty smart, it solves a lot of the problems the Erins now have on their hands:
It means that now Bramblestar will not have to have a really over the top death to get rid of him
It won’t undermine the efforts of the last 6 books since he can still live in retirement if he gets to the point he can no longer lead
The fans can get their new leader and with Bramblestar out the spotlight the controversies around him may calm down a bit
Any reasons for him stepping down or being removed from power won’t be his own fault
It makes him sympathetic so there is a damage control element here to try and get people to like him again
If he is removed from power it also gives the Erins the chance to test out their new way to remove a leader from power
The whole possession thing may act as an in-universe trigger for this decline as River implies it could be – which makes whats happening now a direct result of what happened in the last arc
All in all, the Erin’s are making a good writing choice! Hopefully it goes the way i expect. Bye!
-Spottedpaw
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I feel bad for poor Bramblestar.
This is a great article, and it’s well researched!
Interesting! Awesome article
Great article! I agree. 😁
Poor Bramblestar…he doesn’t deserve that much hate. 😞
Yes he does. Please read the books before commenting. Bramblestar is a annoying, stupid warrior, a horrible leader, and very abusive and controlling mate.
Uh… that was rude. People can have their own opinions too, y’know. People feel differently about topic. I, for one agree with Sandbreeze. People feel differently about particular scenes in the books. And no one opinion is right or wrong. Just remember that 😀
whether or not a relationship is abusive, similarly to other morally distinct issues [like if a cat should be punished for murdering], can’t really be chalked up to conjecture or an opinion because it’s not really something we should be arguing about as a fandom imo.
Spottedpaw could have phrased their comment in a less abrasive way but their sentiment is correct; some things just aren’t an opinion and shouldn’t be debated about as such.
So what you’re saying is that my opinion and Sandbreeze’s opinion is invalid?!
“Whether or not a relationship is abusive, similarly to other morally distinct issues (like if a cat should be punished for murdering)…” Nobody was talking about this. This small conversation was pretty normal and generally level-headed, and there were no big, heated arguments or any of that sort. Changing the subject to BrambleXSquirrel being abusive or not feels very sudden and slightly out of the blue, as none of us were talking about this (apart from Spottedpaw, who simply mentioned their opinion). “It can’t really be chalked up to a conjecture or an opinion because it’s not really something we should be arguing as a fandom imo. Spottedpaw could have phrased their comment in a less abrasive way but their sentiment is correct; some things just aren’t an opinion and shouldn’t be debated about as such.” I do respect your opinion; however, the way you word this yourself is very abrasive. By saying this, you are stating that Sandbreeze’s and Nightwind’s opinions are invalid and conjectures — whether or not they may be conjectures, they’re still opinions, and they have the rights to stay entitled to their opinions. You are giving Spottedpaw criticism only to completely justify it (you say that their view could’ve been less abrasive, only to say that their view is correct…), and you are completely invalidating Nightwind’s and Sandbreeze’s opinions. “It can’t really be chalked up to a conjecture or an opinion.” By saying this, you are immediately assuming that their opinions are conjectures and saying that they can’t form their own opinions just because: “Some things just aren’t an opinion and shouldn’t be debated about as such.” I do not mean to offend you; however, what you say in your comment is very sudden and overall offensive.
Thank you Mistheart
Is the sentiment that some things aren’t an opinion incorrect to you dogmatically or just not in this context? I wasn’t referring exclusively to how people view interpretations of relationships. Some things aren’t [or at least shouldn’t be] opinions, but I’ll digress. I used the word ‘conjecture’ in an incorrect context here and I apologize for that.
“Is the sentiment that some things aren’t an opinion incorrect to you dogmatically or just not in this context?” First off, why are you using such massive words? I do not mean to offend you, or anything of the sort, but I didn’t even know what dogmatic meant until I searched it up five seconds ago. On the topic, I choose the second option — you are right. Some things aren’t just an opinion. However, in the case of Warriors books, most statements are either opinion or fact. In your original comment in this thread, you stated that “some things just aren’t an opinion and shouldn’t be debated about as such.” Based on this, and with the note that you are referring on Spottedpaw’s sentiments, you are directly putting words in Spottedpaw’s mouth — Spottedpaw’s comment said that “Yes he does. Please read the books before commenting. Bramblestar is [an] annoying, stupid warrior, a horrible leader, and an abusive and controlling mate.” Spottedpaw never said that Sandbreeze’s comment just wasn’t an opinion and shouldn’t be in a debate, nor was Sandbreeze’s opinion ever in a debate, nor did it start a debate at all until your comment, which rephrased and misled the meaning of Spottedpaw’s comment. You started an entire unnecessary chain of confusion and offense — first, your interpretation of Spottedpaw’s comment was never stated or even hinted in the comment itself; second, by misleading the purpose of Spottedpaw’s comment and stating that some things just weren’t an opinion and shouldn’t be debated about, you were directly invalidating Nightwind’s and Sandbreeze’s opinion. This in itself is also extremely unfair, as you a) said that Spottedpaw’s sentiments were correct and completely justified their comment, while, at the same time, b) invalidated Nightwind’s and Sandbreeze’s opinions by saying that their views weren’t opinions and shouldn’t be considered in a debate. ~ Cloudy
With my initial response mainly about your original comment, this comment will be referring to your most recent comment. “I wasn’t referring exclusively to how people view relationships.” This statement is extremely offensive in itself. You say that, by “some things just aren’t an opinion,” you aren’t talking about how people view relationships, but how Nightwind and Sandbreeze view BrambleXSquirrel. Given your previous comments, you seem to hate BrambleXSquirrel, which I do respect and understand. However, when people discuss this topic but in the form where BrambleXSquirrel is being looked down upon, you’ve never typed out comments such as this and your initial comment here. When people are being slightly abrasive about their opinions when it comes to hating Bramblestar or BrambleXSquirrel, you’ve never said that BrambleXSquirrel haters’ opinions shouldn’t be in a debate. However, when it comes to the point where Bramblestar is being favored (as in this comment), and Spottedpaw was being slightly abrasive but not in a heated manner (similar to most arguments), you’ve completely justified their response by giving their comment an entire rephrase and saying that “Spottedpaw’s” sentiment was correct. At the same time, you said that Nightwind’s and Sandbreeze’s opinions “aren’t [or at least shouldn’t be] opinions.” Please take some time to reconsider the way you word your thoughts, as this statement is extremely offensive. ~ Cloudy
hi cloudy, please see my response to this thread -> some opinions do carry real world weight in them, and thus have the potential to be personally hurtful, which I believe is what dewtail was alluding to
When Nightwind tried to be polite and said that Spottedpaw’s wording was a bit rude, you instantly said that Sandbreeze’s opinion was just a conjecture and wasn’t/shouldn’t be an opinion. I understand that you apologized for saying that Sandbreeze’s and Nightwind’s opinions were conjectures; however, actions speak louder than words. Despite your apology, you are still so keen on finding so many flaws in their comments to the point where you still criticize them for things that weren’t even hinted in their comments. For example, “Spottedpaw could’ve phrased their comment in a less abrasive way but their sentiment is correct; some things just aren’t opinions and shouldn’t be debated as such.” As I stated in the comment above Spottedpaw never said anything close to this in their comment — you are putting words in their mouth, and with your most recent comment, you are putting words in my mouth as well. ~ Cloudy
Seeming how you’re able to notice tiny mistakes in the comments in this thread, you could’ve inferred that I was referring to this situation and this situation alone, yet you directly make it seem as though my comment is somehow making you confused. You ask a question that could’ve been easily inferred, before apologizing for calling Sandbreeze’s and Nightwind’s opinions conjectures, before immediately saying something that is just as offensive. You are cancelling out your own apology by doing so: “Some things aren’t [or at least shouldn’t be] opinions, but I’ll digress. I used the word “conjecture” in an incorrect context here and I apologize for that.” You are apologizing; yet at the same time you are saying something just as offensive as the action you apologized for — you are apologizing for saying that Nightwind’s and Sandbreeze’s opinions weren’t valid and didn’t have enough evidence, yet you still refuse to stop saying that Nightwind’s and Sandbreeze’s aren’t valid opinions and shouldn’t be opinions, which is overall genuinely confusing and offensive. You are apologizing for something you’re still doing, and you are still calling Nightwind’s and Sandbreeze’s opinions invalid by saying that “[their opinions] aren’t [or at least shouldn’t be] opinions.”
Overall, Dewtail, I do have a question for you. What about Sandbreeze’s sympathy for Bramblestar make it not an opinion, and what about Nightwind’s liking for Bramblestar and note that people have different thoughts on the same situation make it not an opinion? What is missing in Nightwind’s and Sandbreeze’s thoughts that are included in Spottedpaw’s comment? Nothing. Nightwind’s thoughts on Bramblestar are an opinion. Sandbreeze’s thoughts on Bramblestar are an opinion. Spottedpaw’s thoughts on Bramblestar are an opinion. Everyone’s thoughts on fictional characters are opinions. Why? Because they’re all different. If they weren’t just opinions, we’d all be following the same road and like/dislike the same characters. Having different thoughts — having different opinions — on characters is what makes us unique, and saying that Spottedpaw’s opinion is correct and saying that Nightwind’s and Sandbreeze’s opinions on Bramblestar shouldn’t be opinions is directly invalidating Nightwind and Sandbreeze. They have the right to stay entitled to their opinions, and you are invalidating that right by a) rephrasing and misleading the purpose of Spottedpaw’s comment, b) using “Spottedpaw’s” words against Nightwind and Sandbreeze, c) saying that “Spottedpaw’s” sentiment was correct, and d) saying that Nightwind and Sandbreeze’s opinions shouldn’t be opinions and shouldn’t be considered at all in a debate. ~ Cloudy
while it is important to remain respectful (this goes for all of you), dewtail is right in that these conversations and topics hold a lot more weight and are very real for many people. because these topics are so heavy, conversations about them do require more care and attention beyond just “everyone gets their own opinion”. while this statement is true, this sort of hand waving away doesn’t give the topic appropriate attention, instead brushing it to the side as if it held the same weight as an opinion, say, of which book is the best. that can leave people feeling hurt in a personal way more than typical discussions about the series due to their experiences with the matter. anytime we’re talking about real-world implications in fictional books, we need to be careful and considerate of the implications before we arrive at our conclusions
that all being said, Spottedpaw, your comment was rather abrasive. I’m sure you meant well and care deeply about this issue, which is commendable, but let’s not jump on each other when they express an opinion you disagree with. you are well within your rights to disagree and explain, as much as you want, why you think bramblestar is abusive without using language that could hurt Sandbreeze’s feelings.
I’m sorry; I didn’t mean to offend either Dewtail or Spottedpaw. However, it’s more of the wording that gets under my skin. If I do meet someone here who has heightened experiences of such, I will respect their opinion, and the same goes for all people — However, the wording of Dewtail’s comments feels a bit… I don’t know, random. None of us were talking about abuse, or any of the sort. Sandbreeze misunderstood the article and sympathized with Bramblestar, Spottedpaw corrected the misunderstanding in a slightly abrasive way, and Nightwind reminded Spottedpaw to stay friendly. I couldn’t see anything wrong with this, and the way that Dewtail seemed to rephrase Spottedpaw’s comment and use it against Nightwind — saying that their opinions shouldn’t be opinions and shouldn’t be used in a debate — felt really offensive, especially with the thought that they’ve never used any wording of the sort when it comes to hating Bramblestar. I’ve seen arguments on the Internet where abuse victims like Bramblestar and dislike Squirrelflight, and I think it should be noted that such people with such opinions do exist. However, these arguments make it seem as though, if you like Bramblestar and say that on the Internet, your opinions aren’t valid opinions and shouldn’t be used in a debate. However, is you hate Bramblestar, you’re free to debate about it online, and just thinking about that makes me feel sad and excluded. Personally, debating on the Internet about Warriors is one of my hobbies, and while I understand the limits, having the right of debate limited even more by saying that I can’t argue on the Internet if I like Bramblestar makes me feel even worse and even more excluded. I want to debate in a friendly and respectful way, and having that limited really feels exclusive. However, I will say that I might’ve been too keen and passionate in my arguments, and I’ll work harder to be more respectful and considerate the next time I’m in a debate! <3
I understand the frustration at this perceived limitation. I would say it’s not that you can’t have a discussion about it at all, but to keep in mind that these subjects can bring in a lot of more intense feelings. And I do get your frustration -> you want to talk about the books and this is a limitation on a hobby you enjoy. I also get dewtail’s frustration -> she might have experience with people trying to “debate” the validity of very real issues, and I understand if/when that frustration comes in here, too.
You don’t need to apologize, and really I don’t think anyone here does, let’s just all be mindful of the seriousness of this topic when discussing it^^
i’ve seen and had to deal with a lot of people [who usually are not impacted by the issues they debate about] argue needlessly about the existence/validity of things that impact my and my community’s lives drastically and it’s infuriating. I don’t want anyone else to have to feel that way so that’s why i can get heated quick about stuff like this.
[also not trying to beat a dead horse here but i do talk with a lot of vocabulary because I don’t want to even subconsciously enforce certain stereotypes about people who look like me, so i try my best to articulate to the best of my abilities, even online ^^]
that makes perfect sense^^
I hate Bramblestar as well, but please respect other people’s opinions 🙂
^^
Please don ´ t be rude it others people can have their own opinions.
Totally agree with you Spottedpaw he’s terrible and a toxic mate. I’m not sure he’s abusive but he’s toxic. Squif deserved better.
Fantastic article!
MY POOR BRAMBLE BAE
Nice article! I agree that your theory is really cool, and you have a lot of amazing points! But, I do have to say that I actually feel bad for him, and in the last arc or so, I started to like him. True, he was a very bad mate to Squilf, and should be held accountable, but I think he is starting to see the error of his ways, especially after the whole deal that happened in TBC.
And honestly, he’s not that bad of a leader in my opinion. The only reason I didn’t like him before was because of the way he handled his love life, but he is DEFINATELY maturing with Squirrelflight.
Anyway, I really liked this article! Good job!
Great Article!!
Great article! Poor poor Bramblestar. 🙁