Official art by Owen Richardson

Who and what are Gary Stus and Mary Sues? by Frogpaw

Frogpaw takes a look at the supposed Gary Stus and Mary Sues of Warriors.

Official art by Owen Richardson
Official art by Owen Richardson

I know it’s been a hot second but i’m back. If you haven’t met me i’m Frogpaw/sparkle! Chonky frog committing arson in the sparkling moonlight! And to some people who may have been on a blog break for a while i’m also known as Gryffinkit!

INTRO: What will I be discussing today?

What will I be discussing? Well Mary Sues and Gary Stus are a strong subject and I feel like I should discuss that!

What are Mary Sues and Gary Stus?
Mary Sues and Gary Stus are any character that makes no mistakes or very minimal mistakes. Or if they are “perfect” and never have strong emotions. This is NOT a opinion piece so I will refrain from saying “I” or “my”. Well I hope you enjoy! (And I can use “I” in that sentence >:] )

Who is and isn’t a Mary Sue or Gary Sue?

This article is first going to list some characters that others thought seemed too perfect. And we’re going to see, perfect or not?

Definitely not. First of all, In A Shadow in RiverClan, she is shown with a lack of loyalty to her clan. She has a reason to feel disloyal because her leader almost had her killed. But she is still not a Mary Sue because in TNP, she fell in love with Crowpaw/feather who is from Windclan. That would be breaking the code which makes her NOT a Mary Sue.

Firestar is seen as perfect. That doesn’t make him a unlikeable character though. He is never seen mad and “never makes mistakes”. Here are some reasons why Firestar can be seen as “too perfect”:
— He is in every arc
— He is like the savior of everyone and leader of everything
— He is rarely seen mad and when he is mad he is only mad for a sentence or two
— He always followed the warrior code
There are a lot of reasons but those are only a few listed. Moving on!

Spottedleaf is a character that a lot of people think is a Mary Sue, but some argue. This is where I come in on my opinion: I think that Spottedleaf is at the borderline of a Mary Sue. There really isn’t such thing as a Mary Sue and a Gary Stu but I think that she’s close enough to one. Here’s why:
— She loved cats, but she never mated or had kits
— She seemed a bit too beautiful and kind (is that a thing? Idk)
— Spottedleaf sacrificed herself for her crush’s mate (ok, that seems too perfect. Ngl I would not be able to do that *sob)

Star flower:
(Haven’t read DoTC so skipping!)

Silverstream has been seen as “too perfect” but she isn’t because she fell in love with a cat from another clan (Graystripe) and that’s against the code. Not just that, but she also had kits which is a double no-no (why do I sound like a child 😭). So Silverstream is not a Mary Sue.

What? Why am I doing this? No! Dovewing is 100% not a Mary Sue! Actually, people hate Dovewing because she made too many mistakes. First, she fell in love with a cat from a different clan. Some of you may argue that she joined Tigerstar’s clan so that would be alright, but that’s still against the code since (I think) she mated before she joined. And, she left her clan when she was one of the 3, and lost her powers! So no, definitely not.

NO. She had a forbidden mate, had kits, and gave up her job once. NO!

This is hard….uhm, i’m going to say yes and no. No because he tried to kill the love of his life, and fell in love with a Windclan cat. But yes because he never dies. And he never mates with Heathertail. And technically, he couldn’t control not killing Heathertail. Actually, he’s probably not a Gary Stu because his mistake was that he literally couldn’t control himself which is a pretty big mistake.

Honestly, yes. CinderPELT made mistakes, but not Cinderheart. It’s hard to interpret her thought because she’s more of a background character.

Now moving onto the next part!

Trying to find mistakes in Gary Stus and Mary Sues

Are there mistakes that can be found in Cinderheart, Firestar, and/or Spottedleaf? Let’s see!

Again, this is really hard because she’s in the background but, I did find one thing from when she was an apprentice, when she broke her leg, and Jaypaw was in the medicine den with her, he stated that she talker too much. So behold! Frogpaw has found a mistake!

Hmm. Well, first of all, Firestar flipping loved a medicine cat so…he’s obviously not perfect. And not only that, but Firestar’s clan started to doubt his leadership when he let in too many kittypets. Some of you may think that “Well he’s a kittypet so that’s ok!” But it really isn’t. It isn’t against the warrior code, but he was turning more clans to be jealous when he had so many clan members. So, he’s really not perfect.

This one’s most likely the hardest of them all. Some people would think that since she liked Firepaw, that’s a mistake but some people say it’s not since she technically didn’t mate with Firestar. So i’m coming up with a different mistake! *crickets chirping*
Wait! The age gap between Spottedleaf and Thistleclaw is a mistake!

Wrapping it up:

So really, everyone has at least one mistake. It’s impossible to be perfect. I hope I taught all of you a life lesson today! Frogpaw is out!

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  • shroompaw/pool!! | looking for a mentor! | she/her / shroom that grows in mountain's crack | " Will you go fish blasting music with Klee?” ARSON TIME | Spooky Edition Shroompaw is coming soon! says:

    great article! i can agree with all your points! tbh i think starflower is and isn’t a mary sue because *COUGH* she was mates with both thunderstar and his dad, and is because lol she was the daughter of one eye (i think that was his name?) soo she has to go through the tigerstar clone thing lol

  • Great article! I agree with everything and it is true that character mistakes played an important role in crafting an exciting Warriors series! (First??)

  • Brackentuft the friendly ghost cat 👻 🐈‍⬛ | Brackie/Bracken/Tufty | Spooky season is upon us!!! 🎃💀 | I REALLY want to jump in a pile of leaves!!!!!! 🍂 | Mentor the totally radical Rowanpaw!!! She/Her says:

    Great article, Froggo!

  • Great Article, though I disagree with several of your points.

    Feathertail wasn’t a Mary sue because she held a grudge in Shadow In RiverClan. And I don’t think mating with another cat is a flaw or mistake. You can’t really decide who to love.

    Firestar could be considered a gary-Stu because the Clan doubting his leadership was portrayed to be a mistake because Daisy, her kits, and Cloudtail ended up being good cats (well, except Berrynose). And him falling in love with a medicine cat is not a flaw, because again, you can’t decide who you love. And it was never said that the other Clans were jealous that he had so many Clan members, and even if they were making them jealous was not at all his intention.

    Spottedleaf could be interpreted as a Mary-sue because of you latter two points. But your other point about her being in love but not having kits kinda contradicts everything else you said about falling in love with the wrong cat being a bad thing.

    Silverstream could be interpreted as a mary-Sue because you can’t decide who you love. But we didn’t get much personality out of Silverstream anyway because she honestly didn’t appear in that many books.

    Dovewing is a Mary-Sue because she never really did anything wrong at all, even though we got an arc, a novella, and a super edition heavily featuring her. Again, you can’t decide who you love, so falling for Tigerheartstar was not a mistake. She also did not have her powers when she left for ShadowClan, and even if she did, Cinderheart proved that no matter what destiny you are part of, you can make your own choices. Dovewing did just that.

    Leafpool was not a Mary-Sue because she made mistakes, but not for the reasons you said. Her mistakes were raising her kits the wrong way (although there really was no right way), and you can’t decide who you love, so falling for Crowfeather was not a mistake.

    Lionblaze is DEFINITELY not a gray-Stu because he is way to hotheaded and aggresive. Heathertail was not the love of his life. Cinderheart was. Heathertail was just a crush. And you can’t decide who you love, so falling for Heathertail was not a mistake. And him never dying doesn’t even make sense. If you’re referring to his powers, being chosen by StarClan is the opposite of a flaw. But many cats haven’t died yet.

    Cinderheart did have a flaw, and that was believing that she was destined to be a medicine cat because she was the reincarnation of Cinderpelt, but she became a background character afterwards, so we don’t know much more about her. And Jayfeather was probably just being crabby when he said that Cinderheart talked too much.

    Again, Great Article despite all this!

  • This was a great article! 🙂

    I think, no matter how perfect a character is, that they can fit into a narrative seamlessly if they have a good supporting cast of characters and a strong plot.

    For example, Rusty was a prophesied cat, but he had Graypaw and Ravenpaw surrounding him, who were both very developed and interesting characters as well. Thus, it balanced him out.

    And Fireheart brought Cloudkit to join Thunderclan. And this caused the cats around him to question his loyalty to Thunderclan, and he ultimately got off scot-free-

    However, that doesn’t make Fireheart perfect, because Bluestar still admonished him and made Cloudkit *his* responsibility. Thus, he was punished for it.

    When you look at the checks and balances for a character, it’s not just their *own* flaws that make them well-rounded, but also the characters around them that they interact with.

    The plot too, is also important. Fireheart wasn’t the sole source of conflict. There were plenty of events going on without him.

    Silverstream and Graystripe’s secret relationship, Yellowfang helping Cinderpaw learn to be a Medicine Cat, Spottedleaf’s death, Brightpaw and Swiftpaw’s attack on the dogs, etc.

    He’s the Main Character but he’s not the *only* character.

  • Great article! Firestar is Pretty cool alright, he has been mad and said a bunch of stuff I don’t approve of such as this scene nobody remembers:
    “ The brambles swished at the mouth of the den. “Are you going to explain to me what just happened?” Firestar stood in the entrance, green eyes sharp with rage. “Graystripe told me that you started a fight with a ShadowClan patrol!” His ears twitched as he studied Lionblaze. “Why did you let them do that to you?”

    Lionblaze stiffened. “Do I have to win every fight?”

    “Yes!” Firestar thrust his muzzle into Lionblaze’s face. “That’s your destiny! That’s what the prophecy has decided!”

    Lionblaze growled. “So I don’t get a choice?”

    “No! You don’t get a choice!” Firestar flexed his claws. “You have to follow your destiny.””
    And in TNP him being so rude to Brambleclaw/star and Squirrelpaw/flight and the events leading up to
    “ “Squirrelpaw!”

    Brambleclaw froze and his heart sank. He slowly turned around to see Firestar stalking toward them.

    The Clan leader had an expression like ice in his eyes as he looked from Brambleclaw to his daughter and back again. “Is this how you obey orders?” he growled.

    The unfairness of Firestar’s attitude took Brambleclaw’s breath away. For a couple of heartbeats he couldn’t find words to answer, and when he did he knew he sounded guilty. “I’m not disobeying orders, Firestar.”

    “Oh? I’m sorry.” Firestar’s voice was as dry as a sun-scorched rock. “I thought you were supposed to be on a hunting patrol, but I must have heard wrong.”

    “I am on a hunting patrol,” Brambleclaw mewed desperately.

    Firestar made a great show of looking around. “I don’t see Mousefur or Spiderpaw.”

    “Spiderpaw went off after a squirrel.” Brambleclaw pointed with his tail. “Mousefur went after him.”

    “Why are you being so horrible?” Squirrelpaw interrupted, glaring at her father. “Brambleclaw isn’t doing anything wrong.”

    “Brambleclaw isn’t doing what he was told,” Firestar growled. “That isn’t the warrior code as I was taught it.”

    Squirrelpaw sprang forward to stand nose-to-nose with her father and lifted her voice in a yowl of pure fury. “I was stuck in the bush! Brambleclaw helped me! It’s not his fault!”

    “Be quiet,” Firestar rasped. Brambleclaw was struck by how much alike father and daughter looked: green eyes flashing, ginger pelts bristling angrily. “This has nothing to do with you.”

    “It looks like it has,” Squirrelpaw argued. “You growl at Brambleclaw every time he so much as glances at me—”

    “ Silence!” Firestar hissed.

    Brambleclaw stared in alarm. Just at that moment, Graystripe thrust his way into the clearing, a vole clamped in his jaws.

    “Firestar?” he meowed, dropping his prey. “What’s going on?”

    Firestar lashed his tail, then straightened up with an impatient shake of his head. Brambleclaw forced himself to relax the fur on his neck.

    “Oh, right.” Graystripe’s amber eyes glowed with understanding as he looked at the other cats in the clearing, and Brambleclaw realized that whatever was making Firestar act like this, his deputy knew all about it. “Come on, Firestar,” he went on, padding up to the Clan leader and giving him a nudge. “These two aren’t doing any harm.”

    “And not much good, either,” Firestar retorted. He faced the two younger cats. “My decisions, and the orders I give, are for the good of the whole Clan,” he reminded them. “If you can’t understand that, then maybe you aren’t fit to be warriors.””
    And him being mean to Bramblekit/paw for his heritage, and at least a few others. Anyways this was an awesome article!
    Happy 25th anniversary Google!

  • Honeybeam||she/her|| “Kill me, kill me and tell the stars that you’ve won”~Gray wing DotC||Honey warmed by sunbeams says:

    Great article Froggo! I agree with most of your points but if you still haven’t you should totally read DotC! It’s my fave Warriors series!

  • i will also mention that lionblaze killed russetfur and he only couldnt die because of his power before it got revoked. he can die now. not a gary stu.
    cinderheart talking too much isnt a really a mistake because thats more of a personality trait, and spottedleaf’s isnt valid either because the age gap isnt a big thing. so yeah… cinderheart and spottedleaf are mary sues…

    but great article!!

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