Redblaze and Eagleflight discuss, once more, Ashfur’s actions.
Hello I’m Eagleflight and welcome to Is Ashfur Really Evil Part 2. Back in 2020, at the very start of the pandemic, I wrote an article with my irl friend Redblaze over zoom. You’re welcome to read it if you wish, however I’ll warn you now that I’m quite all over the place and a bit strange. Also I had the debating skills of a paper towel. Literally.
I’m Redblaze and please do not read that article because my opinions have changed and developed since then. Please do not base your image of me off of younger me :p
And Aquila, you weren’t that bad at debating! (Aquila: read it right now and you will agree with me!)
Anyhow for this reason, we have decided to do a part two! However, this is not a debate because we actually now both agree on Ashfur so it will be more of a discussion! Enjoy! Oh and I will be typing in italics (it’s EYE-talics, Red by the way) (what are you talking about, in what universe is that right) and Red in bold, just so you can easily see who’s who. Apologies in advance for the chaos that will probably ensue but I hope it’s fun to read! 😀
Well, for the article you could go into the philosophical debate of what actually constitutes “evil” but we both agree that Ashfur was not a nice guy!
(Cue Aquila getting a bit sidetracked) See, the thing is, perhaps this is just my opinion but I think that the vast majority of people are not completely evil or completely good. I think that we would all rank somewhere on that spectrum (most people being somewhere in the middle but leaning towards good) and that Ashfur would probably be quite strongly towards evil. However he wouldn’t be completely defined as “evil” because I don’t believe he is solely one characteristic. He’s morally grey to me but a very dark shade of grey. (And yes by the way, it is GREY and not GRAY (Embix/Birchy don’t you dare edit this 😛 )) (I second this :))
Yes, but we must also remember that Ashfur is a character in a Warrior Cats book not a real person 😛 Though I think why people do get very opinionated on him is because his behaviour is the kind of thing that can and does happen in real life and therefore excusing his behaviour as “just for love” could definitely be seen as invalidating the experiences of many genuine victims. Something younger me did not pick up on!! I was very idealistic (you could say naive 😛 ) and I wanted everyone to have redemption. I took the statement from the books that he was a good person despite his “rash” actions and believed it.
It can be seen as difficult to decide on innocence or evil, however, because the Erins can’t really seem to decide themselves……
This is definitely true, and character inconsistency and inconsistencies in general are another issue in the series but that’s a whole ‘nother article for another day. I feel the reason that Ashfur is also debated a lot is because of the rejection he faces to begin with, which is something quite relatable to many readers. Even if they’ve never faced a romantic rejection because they’re young, (or aro!) they’re likely to have experienced it with friendships and other scenarios, and at the end of the day, no one likes feeling hurt. This to me, is a factor that allows readers to empathise and therefore turns them into Ashfur sympathisers and defenders, without having considered the implications of his later actions like you touched upon above.
Yes, exactly! The issue is that the books make out threatening (or even attempted?) murder as a response to rejection to be somewhat perfectly okay by allowing him access to StarClan, the cats’ equivalent to heaven, and therefore implying that his actions were perfectly good and justifiable. Which they were not! If the books had taught its young audience that this was not an okay response then it would have been fine, but they didn’t. Actually I’m kind of getting off topic here away from the character but whatever 😛
Maybe the massive U-turn in the Broken Code was an attempt to mitigate this as they realised how problematic it was??? It felt very weird!
This is getting slightly off Ashfur, but the true reason I believe that they let him into StarClan was not necessarily that they are advocating for what he did and saying it was okay, but more that the books with Ashfur were written such a while back that they probably forgot what Ashfur did and how bad it was. (Sorry :’) )
They said he got into StarClan like a book after he did it though so they can’t have forgotten that quickly surely?? Wouldn’t put it past them though.
Okay fair enough, I take that back then. I feel like StarClan in the books also has issues with consistency and fair judgement.
Oooh we have another article in the series already!!
But perhaps then the reason they accepted Ashfur into StarClan was more to show the possibility of redemption. And that although we might commit a really sinful act (if we look at this more from a Christian perspective because StarClan was originally meant to be a sort of metaphor for Heaven) there is still the possibility that we will not go to the Dark Forest (Hell), and if we try hard enough and repent, we may be accepted into StarClan. (However, I do not believe that Ashfur showed any such redemption whatsoever and don’t really understand the decision if I’m honest. I’m not sure why I’m playing Devil’s Advocate 😛 )
What many people do say is that Ashfur was better for Squirrelflight than Brambleclaw is because he was kind to her and some even go so far as to blame her for the rejection and his subsequent behaviour. But just because Bramblestar is bad doesn’t mean Ashfur is good and being nice to someone certainly doesn’t mean that you are entitled to them.
That is absolutely true. I think we see a similar story later in the series with Bumblestripe “the nice guy” and Dovewing. However, Bumblestripe is commonly disliked in the fandom, and why would it be that Ashfur with such similar actions is often defended?
Oooh that’s a good point! Perhaps because Ashfur is a more major character and therefore more have opinions on him?
This is true but at the same time, in my opinion, this would make him maybe more obvious to dislike because he is more of an antagonist – especially by the time we get to the scene with Squirrelflight, the three, and the fire.
I should probably point out that his recent appearance in the Broken Code as the main very definitely evil antagonist has likely changed much of fandom opinion. Because we are both very old, we experienced the fandom mostly before these books were released and it is probably likely that Ashfur’s defenders aren’t as prevalent as they once were. I haven’t interacted with the fandom much recently so I don’t actually know!
This is actually very true! Also STOP making me feel oldddd 🙁 16 isn’t that old I promise! By the time you’re 30 you’ll be like ‘why did I say this?!’ 😛
It is old for BlogClan…. I cannot believe the years some of these new people were born in.
I’m not old for a mod! I’m the third youngest! (And taller than a lot of the mods >:D) (wait you are???) (A lot are 5’2! It’s not that hard to be taller than 5’2!) (Welcome to mod trivia with Aquila and Red!) Anyway, let’s get back to Ashfur! So I saw you mentioned above about the u-turn they seemed to make on his entry into StarClan in the Broken Code series. I feel like we could discuss this further. What do you believe was their reasoning for this and what do you think brought the issue to light to them and made them backtrack?
As I said, potentially because they realised it was actually problematic? Or simply because there were some new writers who needed a villain and didn’t care too much about consistency. But anyway, any debate that Ashfur is good has pretty much fallen apart since the release of Veil of Shadows (was that the one where they revealed him to be the imposter?) (I don’t knowww sorry, I don’t remember the names of the books (I did read them I promise)!) (It actually seems to be Darkness Within! Thank you Warriors Wiki my saviour 🙂 )
(My dad has just come in and been like ‘you’re writing about Warrior Cats? I thought you were writing about a great work of modern literature’, I thought I’d just share that with you all because it’s funny 😛 ) (You mean Warrior Cats isn’t a great work of modern literature?? The heresy!)
Yes, I agree with you there – the Ashfur debate has been a bit vanquished since it’s hard to argue with the entire Broken Code series. However, for the sake of the article, it is still interesting to debate him! I think that I would almost go as far as to argue that Ashfur in the Broken Code is quite a different character altogether than Ashfur from TNP and PoT. I think it’s a bit like Brambleclaw/Bramblestar, the recent versions of the characters don’t much resemble who they were in the books before.
That’s very true and it can make debates within the fandom difficult! For this reason, we will only talk about pre broken code Ashfur. That and the fact that the original article we did was written before Ashfur was revealed as the imposter! (which was like 3 years ago, wow!)
No literally! It’s also strange to think the original article was over 3 years ago now. Another point that we debated in the first Ashfur article was attempted murder compared to actually going through with the deed. My opinion will probably be quite strong, but I’m going to say that I believe that attempted murder is just as wrong as actual murder. In my opinion, it doesn’t particularly matter that the victim did not die, either through the fact that they were saved or that the person didn’t go through with the murder, the intent is still there and that to me is the most dangerous part.
Did I come across as saying that attempted murder was excusable because it wasn’t murder? I hope not! I completely agree with you there! Just because the attempt failed does not mean it’s okay. More importantly I think the justification of attempted murder as “loving too much” is, quite frankly, very silly and certainly not an excuse.
Oh yeah, I’m completely with you there, I can’t quite believe that that was actually said about Ashfur. To me, that was a major reason as to why I would disagree with those who defend him, as even thinking about taking the life of someone else is such a serious matter and not something you can brush off and say ‘oh well he just loved Squirrelflight’.
Warrior cats I feel does tend to deal with murder as a very frivolous matter in general! Though again that’s an article for another day!
Yep, definitely! I think I’ve said all I want to say, to be honest. Shall we end it here?
Alright! Thank you everyone for sticking around and reading this rambly mess of an article 😛
I hope you enjoyed it anyway! And let us know what your thoughts are in the comments below…
Maybe see us again in 2026 for another rewrite! 😛
Wow… Wow.
*slow claps then sets up camp till the next three year rewrite*
God. I’ll be in my 20’s by then…
NO I just realised depending when in 2026, I will too :’)
That’s scary, I’ll be second year of uni 😛
Wow… Wow.
*sets up camp for the growing old party in three years*
Congrats to your future self for entering the second year of uni! 😊
I’ll have my plumbers’ license by then :0
when it’s 2026, ill graduate high school 😱
BAHAHA IN 2026 IMMA BE IN YEAR 8 >:)
Ill be in10th grade by then😱 Lets just…umm…see if I survive til then 😛 /LH
I’ll be driving in 2026 ….oh my
Woohoo a Aquila article! ILY Aquila! And I agree it’s eye-talics 😛 great article!!!! My oppinion: Ashfur was pretty evil. His reasons would’ve been more understandable, but he did hold a grudge for too long and literally tried to destroy the Clans just to make his ex suffer. That’s not ok. So yea I sorta agree,, and I’ma go off and read that old article! <3
Just commenting to say I did not know most of the “mod trivia” 😛
Reading your future commentary was kinda funny 😛
Haha yay!! 😀
I missed the “not” in ” but we both agree that Ashfur was not a nice guy” and I was about to be very concerned before I went back and checked again 😛 I remember reading the original of this so it was super fun to see how your opinions have developed! Excellent article!
That… was refreshing.
I agree, Ashfur was awful and deserves to rot in the Dark Forest. I hope you make another rewrite in 2026! (Oh god, I’ll be Aquila’s age by then… scary 😛)
AND YES IT’S GREY NOT GRAY! 😛
Good article.
You’re “old”? I just turned 73, youngins.
“I feel like StarClan in the books also has issues with consistency and fair judgement.”
This is one of the biggest, most persistent problems in the series.
wat, your old 😛
“your”: 2nd person possessive pronoun, e.g., “Is that your book?”
“you’re”: contraction of you are, e.g., “You’re old.”
yeah it really is! I seem to remember we were discussing doing an article about that next! Also it’s cool to see a wide range of ages on Blogclan!
Great article, Red and Aquila! I think Ashfur wasn’t entirely bad, just like how you stated near the beginning of the article. This was a lot of fun to read tho 😛
This was such a fun format to read! Like a back and forth on the radio! I love the “interruptions” just as much as the actual discussion =D And this is definitely an interesting topic! I’m not sure whether you were joking, but I’d LOVE to hear you guys talk about StarClan’s issues or general writing inconsistency stuff. Goodness, I could ramble on about both of those topics for days …
Thanks Jericho!! It would be very cool if we made Red and Aquila discuss into a series I think.. if we have time during sixth form 😛
ashfur is kinda evil
also good article
omg your gonna make one in 2026? im gonna graduate high school that year 😛
oh and another random thingy, i believe this is the last group of mods that will be older than the blog lol (unless someone older than the blog joins blogteam later, but it kinda seems unlikely) but it’s kinda weird to think about it.
Darn I loved this so muchhhhh <3
Great article! (PS: Can I say I am being someone for Halloween or do I have to ask them?)
Yo hai Aqui so if your the third youngest mod, whos the second and first yougest 😛 and dont come at me for using the wrong your, or whatever other grammar mistakes I make, because I. Don’t. Care. /LH Im hyper and im typing fast irdc
Lil and Osp are younger than me!
I won’t judge grammar, I have horrible grammar! 😛
Wha—I thought Osp and Lil were older😭
Did you think I was the youngest?