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It’s me, Crystalshine, back with an explosive comment that will rapidly turn into an Ashfur debate despite him never even being mentioned 🙂
Why are there multiple Clans? No, not the out-of-universe reason, the in-universe one. No, not Dawn of the Clans, I mean the in-universe reason that actually makes SENSE.
The only reason for having five Clans is this cryptic prophecy that never got a proper explanation and this mousebrain named Clear Sky.
What had started as an arbitrary decision to live in different camps and defend your borders has become a twisted way of life for generations upon generations. These cats randomly decided to live in different camps. I have no problem with that. Go live in whatever camp you want, I like that decision actually.
The problem is what happens NEXT. Clear Sky (who died and made him the leader) decided to become a mousebrain and started marking borders, a totally UNNECESSARY action. Why did he do this? I have no idea.
However, this results in terrible battles happening (of course it does), and they’re all ready to settle down and start being peaceful, when StarClan pops in!
They split up all over again, and boom, start marking borders again, and boom, start fighting again. For no reason.
So, you ask, so what if they fight over territory? Why does it matter? Well, I hope you didn’t actually ask this question, because it means you read like, no Warriors books. (no offense) Territory disputes cause dead cats, injured cats, and waste time.
If they didn’t mark borders or fight over space, then they would have more time to socialize, play, and hunt. Herbs would be saved for accidental yet unavoidable injuries instead of being wasted on perfectly avoidable battle injuries.
And why am I complaining about this? Three words. The Broken Code.
They revamped the entire code. They were clearly clear-minded enough to see the cracks in the code, so why weren’t they clear-minded enough to see that having five Clans is unnecessary to the extreme?
Again, don’t give me the out-of-universe explanation of “Oh, but Crystalshine, the authors needed to cause conflict!” I want a better Dawn of the Clans.
And of course, that brings me to my final point. Where Warriors is going in the future. Warriors better end on a book that changes the Clans and combines them all, or I will never be satisfied.
Crys out!
I don’t think combining the Clans would be a good idea. There would be too many cats in one place, and cats with different skill sets would all be forced to live together and learn the same things. Without StarClan, the Clans probably would’ve separated anyway- with cats with such different ideas about a home, they probably would’ve settled into their respective habitats regardless of StarClan. The prophecy telling them to do exactly this just pushed them that last bit into fully distinguishing and recognizing the five groups.
Clans having borders will always result in conflict. The Clans very rarely truly change, at their core, and different groups with conflicting ideals living next to each other will always be cause for fighting. Combining the Clans would not be a good solution for this because, again, the five Clans have very different ideas of home, and making them live in the same camp would not improve anything- it would likely just cause more conflict.
The cats were clear-minded enough to change the code mostly because of the terrible events they had witnessed surrounding Ashfur’ reign, and of Rootspring’s loss. Rootspring and Bristlefrost were truly in love, and by the time Ashfur had been defeated, most Clan cats recognized that they shouldn’t have been outlawed from being with each other. So they changed the code so that cats like Rootspring and Bristlefrost could be together in the future. The circumstances leading up to this make sense as reasons why the Clans would change their core values.
I think that the Clans being split into five groups makes sense, as the cats all have different ways of living and wouldn’t function well in the same Clan.
Agreed!
I agree with everything you said. Except…
I never said that they HAVE to live in the same camps. Just forego the borders and the fighting over said borders. Go ahead, live in the same camps, exist in the same areas, if you want. But if a ThunderClan cat loves a WindClan cat or something, nothing is stopping them from it. All I am proposing is to get rid of the borders. If you still want to live your life in those borders, go on ahead! But if you don’t, you can still do that. Also, who says one cat will be ruling? It’s called democracy, guys.
If I was packing one camp with all the cats, then yeah, that won’t work, but go ahead and live in whichever camp you want! But if you’re a RiverClan drypaw, who loves everything else about RiverClan, you can stay in RiverClan but not be forced into fishing!
Suppose, say, Ivypool is obsessed with ThunderClan and never wants to leave. Go ahead, stay in those tiny borders of yours. Just don’t complain when Harelight joins because fish are disgusting. (I used random cats for that analogy, Harelight probably loves fish)
So, I’m not squishing ALL these cats into a teeny tiny camp, they can stay, or they can go. If an apprentice is interested in fishing but prefers ThunderClan territory, stay in either camp and fish every so often. It’s not like before, where RiverClan drypaws either had to adapt or to pass tests to move.
The thing is, there’s a lot of different aspects of each and every Clan that a cat may or may not enjoy. This allows cats to pick and choose what parts of being in said Clan they want and which they don’t.
Extra freedom and no wasted time fighting over territories. I simply cannot see anything wrong with it.
i suppose that merging all the clans would create less disputes, but i think that sooner or later, this arrangement wouldn’t work. (see: *spoilers for ivypool’s heart* stormclan). by now, the clans are divided enough that it’s not just by borders, but their own traditions and cultures. for instance, riverclan cats like fish, which is something hated by all the other clans. and that they swim. or shadowclan’s taste for frogs.
and these are things that these clans are mocked for. you can argue that you can always maintain these values even inside one clan, but who’s to say that there won’t be open arguments over simple things like this?
my point is, no matter how hard you try to merge the clans, they will always end up dividing. politics, sickness, etc. it’s too much power to be given to one cat, surely it would cause disagreements among others and once again, cause the clans to branch out around the territory once more.
which brings me to another subject. territory. each clan is suited to one territory, windclan to the moor, riverclan to the streams and reed beds, etc. with the clans becoming one, it’ll obviously make some cats uncomfortable with this. would a riverclan cat agree that easily to change to, say, skyclan’s territory and have to learn their ways of climbing trees, something they aren’t used to? and partly from genetics?
anyhow, while certain aspects of being one clan are definitely beneficial to cats’ wellbeing, i feel like being in five separate clans is what will really be the best option.
The Clans think very differently about a lot of things, and the dynamic in their camps aren’t the same. We’ve seen multiple times how different Clans try to work together and they always end up quarreling about everything. Take ShadowClan and SkyClan in AVoS, for example. It simply wouldn’t work.
Besides, the Clans need their borders to stay organized. Their minds are pretty different from the ones of a modern society, and while cooperating as one big group maybe would be more successful, that isn’t really how groups work – this applies to people as well. Humans have also had borders through all these years, and today they can still be difficult to cross.
And, to wrap this up, I simply don’t think these moody Clan cats could possibly handle so many cats at once lol, they’d tear each others’ eyes out
They don’t have to live in the same camp. They can stay separate if they want. I’m simply removing fighting and allowing these cats to wander whichever part of all five Clans they want.
I think that Mal is right – the Clans are much better off split up. Everyone should be able to live the life they want, in the environment they want. Also, all the Clans combining would cause trouble. There would still be a sense of loyalty to your original Clan and the Clanmates from that Clan, and there would still be conflicts. When enough generations have been born that this problem is gone and everyone is united, there will still be problems because during harsh months like leafbare, how will five Clans worth of cats all be fed, when most Clans struggle to feed only one Clan worth of cats during this time?
I agree all the conflicts can feel pointless, but a more helpful solution to that in my opinion is peace, not merging the Clans 🙂
Merging all of the Clans would create less disputes, and save time, but at this point, it would be impossible to get all of these cats- who have fought and disagreed with each other and killed each other’s clanmates for their entire lives, with different customs and different ways of living- together into one area and live with each other.
Honestly, I can see this as a great plot point, and I agree that boarders are pointless in DotC, but it wouldn’t be a good idea.
If they made it like it was at the end of The First Battle in DotC, where they could unquestionably be with whoever they want and live anywhere without fighting, then it might work, but forcing all of these cats who eat different food and live in different areas live in one are likely wouldn’t work in current warriors cannon.
I feel like Clear Sky making borders kind of makes sense-if you see him as what he is, a mouse-brain. Now, feel free to correct me, it’s been a while since I read Dawn of the Clans, but Clear Sky seems like a cat who really wants power. At least at the beginning of the arc and in Moth Flight’s vision, he is willing to throw anyone or anything away for power. What better way to get power than to get cats who disagree with you completely separated from your cats, and if they try to take away from your power they can say they are breaking your rules. And the other leaders had to go along with it, or Clear Sky would push them out. If leaders are at least a little morally corrupt, it makes total in universe sense to keep borders, because it can create an us-verses-them mentality perfect for power. Would ShadowClan have been as willing to follow Brokenstar had they not been afraid of the other clans? The recent leaders of The Broken Code (an arc I have not read, so take literally everything with a grain of salt) seem to be all morally decent cats, former protagonists and such (and Harestar), so they may be willing to get rid of some power to make things better, where former leaders would not.
Hello, it is I, Mizzie, back with another rant.
The clans think way to highly of StarClan. Like, they treat them like the amazing, magical beings with the answers to the universe who save lives and do all this amazing stuff. But what does StarClan actually do?
They just sit around and enjoy the lush fields and hunt. And when it’s time for them to be ‘important’ and ‘helpful,’ they give some really weird, confusing phrophecy that’s like impossible to decipher through random cats’ dreams.
If they really valued the clans most, they could just GIVE SIMPLER CLUES. Like, instead of saying “four will become two. Lion and Tiger will met in battle and blood will rule the forest,” you could say, “the four clans are going to become two to form LionClan and TigerClan who will meet in battle until BloodClan attempts to rule the forest.” I just twisted their words a bit and made the whole prophecy so much easier to understand. And was it that hard? No. So why does StarClan have to talk in riddles? It doesn’t make sense.
They do nothing except give vague prophecies that don’t really help the clans that much, and it ends up the actually clan cats doing all the work. So why is StarClan so heavily worshipped? For example, how every time a piece of prey is caught, the clans have to thank StarClan for it. Why do they do that? StarClan didn’t lead the prey to the cat. The clans catch it. They shouldn’t have to thank some useless spirits every time they do something.
Also, there are many situations in which StarClan is just completely, very plainly dumb. Three examples for ya:
1 – Ashfur
2 – Juniperclaw
3 – Leafpool
StarClan is supposed to be perfect. Everything they do is right, isn’t it? Well, that’s what the clans think. But, actually, StarClan let a murderer into their clan, who almost ended all of the clans. I’m talking about Ashfur. Why would StarClan take in a cat who tried to kill his former mates’ ‘kits?’ I really don’t know. Ashfur was pretty plainly evil. And yet starclan let him into their clan, saying all he did was ‘love too much.’ Except for the fact that trying to kill three young, innocent, kits is NOT love. Ashfur didn’t love squilf.
And then, look what happened because Star clan let him in. He possessed a clan leaders body, and almost killed starclan and ruined all of the clans. And yet the clans still think StarClan is perfect. They are, very clearly, not.
I’m not going to expand too much on Juniperclaw because I know it’s going to become a full fledged, long, passionate 100000 word rant about why he doesn’t deserve the dark forest. But long story short, Juniperclaw 100% doesn’t deserve the Dark Forest. Especially considering the fact that Ashfur is in StarClan.
Lastly, Leafpool, and really every other med cat who had kits/a mate and was ridiculed for it. A medicine cats’ skills aren’t taken away by having a mate. And you cant just expect a cat to not have feelings for another cat. It’s completely unfair. And considering the fact that Leafpool left Crowfeather and joined her clan, determined to me loyal, shows how good of a clanmate she is. And, though she had a relationship with Crowfeather, her medicine cat abilities were still amazing. She still healed cats, still could interpret dreams from StarClan, still could raise an apprentice, still could so everything she did before, just as good. So the fact that StarClan almost sent her into the dark forest is crazy. She is in no way, shape, or form, and evil cat. She just had feelings, like any normal cat would. StarClan can’t blame her for that.
StarClan is pretty dumb if you ask me, coming up with dumb rules the clans have to follow, and not really doing much good for the clans, or actually working at all. And yet they are worshipped as if they are gods. Its not right.
woah this is long 😛
i completely agree with all of this
What if StarClan isn’t dumb, and they’re doing this on purpose?
evil starclan is my favourite headcanon lol
I agree on most of your points. I like the concept of StarClan in the first arc, but the Erins ruined it in later books, as I explained in a comment on the last page
I find their ‘vague prophecies’ very meaningful towards the plot of the books. I agree they could use simpler clues, but where would the the fun in that? The Clans would just know everything that was about to happen all the time and it would be really boring to just know the future every time something bad is about to happen. If the prophecies weren’t vague and hard to understand, the protagonists wouldn’t take the time to try and figure it out and we’d already know the ending. If the prophecies were easier to understand, there’d be no point in reading the book – nonetheless the entire series! How would you be able to be interested in a book if everything that was about to happen was told to you that easily?
Also, it’s just the Clans’ religion to give thanks to StarClan, and it’s similar to some religions that exist in the real world. It’s just the Clans’ way of honoring their ancestors and it’s a very meaningful part of their lives.
However, when it comes to deciding whether a cat should join StarClan or the Dark Forest, they really screw it up. Leafpool’s trial should’ve been the easiest thing in the world and Juniperclaw knew his mistake and tried to correct it by saving a pregnant queen and a kit.
Though for Ashfur, things were kind of . . . complicated. I can see why StarClan didn’t see him as an evil cat at the time. Sure, he wanted revenge on Squirrelflight, but he wasn’t actually able to do it. He threatened killing Squirrelflight’s ‘kits’ but he didn’t actually end up doing much to them . . . so he didn’t do anything that would have automatically sent him to the Dark Forest. AND, to be clear, he wasn’t being the bad guy by revealing Squirrelflight and Leafpool’s secrets. They broke the code and kept it a secret, so like any other warrior Ashfur was going to tell the Clans and have them punished for doing the wrong thing instead of just owning up to the mistake. He did do it out of revenge on Squirrelflight, but that didn’t make revealing the secret wrong. Squirrelflight and Leafpool should’ve known that someday their secret would be revealed and they’d have to make up for it. And Ashfur didn’t deserve to be murdered because of that – that was out of Hollyleaf’s pride. He did more of his killing cats and taking revenge stuff after dying and he didn’t do anything truly evil during his life, so I can see why StarClan chose the way they did.
Sorry for getting off track. So I think this concludes to how StarClan is written. Sometimes they do do good things and sometimes they don’t make the best decisions. And, to be fair, everyone makes mistakes and don’t always get it right. However, I believe that StarClan is being written worse now that they are constantly in the Clans’ lives and are no longer as mysterious as they used to be.
I understand your point of view! However, the fun is from the reader’s perspective, and when these prophecies mean life or death like they do in Warriors, I don’t think it’s really fun for the characters. I mean, imagine being scared for your life and those of the ones you love, and StarClan sends a cryptic prophecy that you now have to figure out ALONG WITH trying to survive and do your duties. That would be really frustrating and stressful!
But anyways, I think you make a good point! Don’t agree, though.
I 100% agree with every word of this. Well said, Mizzie.
I agree COMPLETELY with u, especially with the Juniperclaw thing. Also, how DARE StarClan judge Leafpool for having a cross-clan relationship when like half of the whole Warriors population did the SAME EXACT THING! Like, Bluestar, you KILLED your kit when you brought it over to another clan!
*Breathe Oleg*
Anyways, ty for saying this.
Don’t get me wrong, Leapordstar is awesome…but I have questions. This isn’t a Leapordstar hate thing, it’s a discussion.
When Feathertail gives prey to Ferncloud, Leapordstar calls Feathertail’s acts as a traitor and punishes her with apprentice duties. Reasnoble, and here’s why. The prey Ferncloud was chasing did go into Riverclan territory and it did belong to them, so Feathertail deserves to be punished 100%. But incorporating the word traitor…not quite right. A former traitorous cat with blood on her paws should not tell one of her almost victim’s who received PTSD their a traitor. Instead, bring up territory and how Feathertail heavily miscalculated where the prey went. It seemed like Leapordstar wasn’t quite fair with those choice of words. And shouldn’t Leapordstar understand Feathertail’s compassion to Thunderclan since Thunderclan was there for Feathertail when she needed it the most?
It took Leapordstar a whole year to apologize to Feathertail and Stormfur. And an even longer time to apologize to Mistyfoot? If you could apologize to Feathertail, why wait so long for Mistyfoot? Forgiveness is a choice, but it’s hard when that person doesn’t actually ask for it. You might argue Leapordstar apologized to the two she-cats because she was dying and that’s an excuse, but how come no one excuses Quick Water? Everyone says Quick Water is bad for apologizing too late. If Clear Sky did something like that, it would just be another excuse to hate him. So Leapordstar shouldn’t be any different. I liked it that Leapordstar apologized, but I’m not quite okay with the lengthy time and the events it took for her to do so.
What’s your opinion? I’m neutral.
i… haven’t read whatever book that all happens in 😛
lol it’s A Shadow in Riverclan 😛
Best Graphic Novel imo Love Feather
I agree with all your points. I personally dislike Leopardstar and I think her SE is rushed
I’m pretty sure Leopardstar apologized to Mistyfoot before Feathertail because after they defeated Tigerstar, Mistyfoot was automatically the next deputy.
I don’t know much about this since I haven’t read ASIRC 😛 I do like Leopardstar, though!
I feel like Leopardstar is one of those cats who really hates to admit she’s wrong about things. She has her beliefs about the other clans (only co-operate if it helps RiverClan) and refuses to go against them. I think Leopardstar is one of those characters that always towed the line between villainous and somewhat sympathetic. She was never really meant to be a fully good cat, and in my opinion it helps make her compelling. Apologizing would mean she had to admit she is wrong, and that she did the wrong thing for RiverClan. When she died, she might have felt she had nothing to lose, what use is pride if you are dead? It doesn’t justify her lack of apology, but it might explain it. I don’t know where I’m going with this, it’s literally word salad, but that’s my opinion, I guess
Do you think that Ashfur deserved StarClan? I mean, he didn’t do anything that would send him to the Dark Forest.
He was a good cat and during his life his only problem was being upset over Squirrelflight’s rejection. However, he didn’t do anything ‘evil’ because of it – at least, not when he was alive.
You might be saying, “But he tried to murder Squirrelflight’s ‘kits’!”. Well, did he actually murder them? No, he didn’t. He threatened it, but after Squirrelflight revealed that they weren’t hers and her sister’s instead, Ashfur didn’t do anything to them. Of course, I understand what he did was undefendable, but he actually end up doing anything. He wanted to hurt Squirrelflight but after he figured out that he couldn’t do it by hurting her ‘kits’.
Also, he wasn’t evil for trying to reveal Squirrelflight and Leafpool’s secret! If you ask me, Leafpool should’ve just owned up to her mistake instead of hiding it, and Ashfur was doing the right thing by telling someone about it. Of course, telling it to all the Clans was not the most reasonable choice, but even if he just told someone in his Clan, the gossip would’ve spread to the other Clans eventually. Also, how was him telling all the Clan’s bad if Hollyleaf did it herself? When she decided to tell them, no longer was it considered too irrational. But Ashfur wanted to do it out of revenge and Hollyleaf just wanted to tell cats what really happened. So? That shouldn’t make a difference. It would’ve torn Squirrelflight and Leafpool’s legacy no matter who told the Clans!
And was Hollyleaf murdered because she wanted to tell the truth? No. What Ashfur? Yes! No matter what he tried to do, there was no need for Hollyleaf to murder him! He needed to tell someone about it because they broke the code and they deserved the consequences they would get for it. Sure, what he was about to do was out of revenge, but he didn’t deserved to be murdered because of that!
Honestly I think he did deserve StarClan as he didn’t do anything that would deserve him the Dark Forest. He never ended up hurting anybody because he never got the chance, so why should he be placed in a land of criminals? All the evil and horrible things he did was after his death and only then do I think he deserved the Dark Forest.
I don’t think people should be justified for failing to kill someone from attempted murder because they changed their mind or chance happened. Otherwise a lot awful of people would not be in jail right now. Or prison.
Again, not putting this irl
He conspired to kill Firestar. I think that’s enough to send him to the Dark Forest.
i respectfully disagree c:
1) he helped hawkfrost try to murder firestar which seems pretty df-worthy to me
2) although he didnt actually burn them, he definitely wanted to and was planning to before he found out they werent squirrelflights kits, and i believe attempted murder is just as bad as actual murder
3) hollyleaf killed him because he tried to kill her. in her eyes, its only fair. if i was almost burnt to death by the ex of who i believed at the time to be my mother, id be pretty mad too and would probably want revenge
in short, ashfur has been canonically found guilty of 4 attempted murders which i believe should be enough to send him to the df. trying to kill four people just because your ex broke up with you like 3 years ago is not okay, even if they didn’t actually die.
I agree with all of this, plus he tried to kill Lionblaze when the latter asked for “battle training”
No, he didn’t. There was no evidance that he ever had a plan to kill Lionblaze during the training. He also congratulated him for the good training and nothing was ever mentioned that he had anything against Lionblaze at the time.
He helped Hawkfrost? I don’t really remember that. . . Also, Hollyleaf didn’t kill Ashfur because he tried to kill her, she killed him because he was going to reveal that she was half-Clan. And even so, if she was going to murder to try and get revenge, how does that make her any better than him?
1) it was heavily implied in the last book of TNP, he told an apprentice to go tell firestar that shadowclan was waiting on the territory when they werent actually and if he wasnt involved at all i dont see why he would
2) she heavily disliked him for it fs and i dont think shed have gone that far if he hadnt tried to kill them for it
3) it doesnt. i personally very much dislike hollyleaf and i think shes incredibly similar to ashfur in that regard (both are willing to kill to get what they want and see this as justified)
For 2: though she may have held a grudge against him, she killed him more to protect her pride
agreed
“He never ended up hurting anybody because he never got the chance.”
Exactly. He never got the chance.
Ashfur wanted to make Squirrelflight, the cat he claimed to love, feel unbearable agony when her three adopted children, whom she raised and loved like her own, died. The only reason he didn’t was because he thought that because the Three we’re not Squirrelflight’s biological children she would not feel the pain he wanted her to feel from their passing.
Threatening to kill three innocent cats in a fire because you were rejected is insanity. Pure insanity. Ashfur genuinely believed his pain over being rejected could be likened to the grief a mother would feel over the loss of her kids. In other words, he’s very self absorbed and completely disregarded all of Squirrelflight’s feelings, like refusing to accept she liked Bramblestar.
Ashfur also tried to lure Firestar to a trap to kill him in The New Prophecy. Again, he failed, but he tried.
All of the evil things Ashfur did when he was alive failed. So maybe StarClan decided this cat with evident bitterness and hate in his heart could come up into StarClan. In the end, nobody had been physically hurt by him, so it was okay, right? He only loved too much – that was why he had tried to burn three cats.
Just too much love in his heart.
But can you see what happens when Ashfur’s plans do not fail? The entire Broken Code arc. This is the type of thing Ashfur showed he wanted to do and would do, but because he failed all of the attempted murders he plotted, nobody thought him getting into StarClan would matter.
Then he proved he will always want revenge. He will always be hateful.
And one day, he will succeed in getting that vengeance, which he did.
If he had been sent to the Dark Forest because of his dark intentions and clear maliciousness, the entirety of TBC could have been avoided.
Ashfur was always a murderer. He just hadn’t actually killed anyone yet.
Incredibly well-said
Thank you, Snowy <3333
You’re welcome, Silv! <3333
seconded!
Thank you, Shimmz! <3
I agree that he deserved the Dark Forest, but what if StarClan really thought that he had overcome being a murderous cats? He found a new way to get Squirrelflight back, and it didn’t include anyone dying. If Hollyleaf hadn’t killed him, at least he would get his revenge and no one would get hurt. It probably was a good move to have him gone as he was not a very sane cat, but what if he was different after getting his revenge? I think he would’ve felt a little justified or maybe start to let go of Squirrelflight.
I’m pretty sure that causing Squirrelflight pain in front of the four Clans by revealing a huge secret isn’t trying to win her. It might not include any murder, but it would cause mental scars in the lives of dozens permanently.
Plus, I don’t think he’s the type of cat to ever let go, which is shown very clearly in the Broken Code. Even with the power of the afterlife at his claws, and multiple cats including Bramblestar under his control, Squirrelflight turned him away, and Ashfur was still trying to win her over. If that isn’t him clinging to his unhealthy love, I don’t know what is.
Do you think he should’ve let it stay a secret?
And how do we know? None of his plans – even those that didn’t include murder – never succeeded, so we would never know if he could let go.
The fact that he needed that revenge in the first place and would go so far to get it is a sign he shouldn’t be allowed in StarClan, regardless of how he is afterwards. 🙂
youre contradicting yourself. in your other message, you stated that he didnt do anything to deserve the dark forest /nm ^^
Meant to add in the end or something like after he possessed Bramblestar – he definitely deserved it then.
I love that last 2 lines!
Thank you Sparri ❤️❤️
soooo well-said <3
Thank you Holz <333
I personally think that Ashfur had a hard childhood – both his parents died and then when he found love in Squirrelflight she rejected him. What he did was inexcusable but his past may have influenced it. He truly loved Squilf and was heartbroken by her betrayal. And you’re right – the really bad things he did were after he died. So, I think he did deserve StarClan, and some peace!
i dont believe any behavior should be justified by “oh, they had a hard life.” and i dont think his past should matter in this debate. what he did while he was alive (see my other comment) are plenty awful enough for him to deserve the dark forest. cats who have done less wrong than him ended up in the df. saying “oh all the bad stuff he did was after he died” means you think attempted murder is okay (its not). also, if he attempts to kill multiple cats just because his crush rejected him, thats not love at all. if he really loved squilf he would want the best for her, not try to hurt her. lastly, many people have had a terrible past, but they dont necessarily turn into bloodthirsty killers. what ashfur decided to do was entirely his own choice and i dont believe his childhood should take the blame.
sorry if this isnt very clear, its pretty late over here :p
I don’t really think that his past had much to do with any of it, but I can see how it might have affected how he processed the rejection. Also, no cat or world is perfect and not everybody can just let things go. Not everyone experiences a rejection in the same way, and in Ashfur’s case he wanted to get Squirrelflight back. I do believe that maybe attempted murder wasn’t the way to go, but wanting revenge isn’t wrong. Revenge is how he chose to deal with it.
just hopping into this convo to say that whilst there are people out there who take revenge on their ex or whatever, revenge normally comes in the form of like badmouthing them to other people trying to date them or trying to make the ex jealous of them by flexing how good their life is without them – certainly not by trying to kill their children in a fire. even if ashfur can’t let things go, this is much much worse than moping over your ex, crying or desperately talking to them to try and get them to rethink and come back. the things he does are full on crimes. if he was a person, who would be in jail for a very very long time. the judge wouldn’t care that squilf is his ex – she has the right to reject someone she doesn’t love. she doesn’t owe it to ashfur to date him. she loved bramble and she raised a family with him. she has the right to not be threatened by her ex and feel safe in her own clan. if your way of dealing with rejection involves hurting someone else, it’s inexcusable.
Many cats have had a harder life than Ashfur and they did not turn to violence. Regardless of the difficulty of your life, it does not mean what he did is okay or that he deserves ‘peace’ after what he tried to do. Everyone gets to make a choice on who they want to be and Ashfur made that choice.
I disagree. You say that he “never ended up hurting everybody because he never got the chance.” Exactly. He never got the chance. But had he gotten that chance, he would’ve murdered three completely innocent apprentices, and Firestar as well.
First of all, he conspired with Hawkfrost to kill Firestar, meaning he was planning to kill him. Even if he didn’t go through with the murder, he still planned on doing it, and would’ve done it had he had the chance.
Secondly, he also tried to kill Lionblaze during battle training, by attacking him with unsheathed claws. I mean, maybe he wasn’t trying to kill Lionblaze, but he was trying to significantly injure his own apprentice, something that’s completely unacceptable.
And then we have Ashfur’s actions to Squilf and her adopted kits. Ashfur tried to burn Squilf’s kits in a fire, in hope that it would make her “feel the same pain he did when Squilf rejected her.” That is not love. That is insanity and obsession. that is selfishness. That is hate. He wanted to hurt squilf in a way she would never heal; in a way she might never recover from. That alone shows that Ashfur is not a mentally stable cat.
And then there’s the point that these were three innocent apprentices. Lionpaw, Hollypaw, and Jaypaw had done nothing to Ashfur up until that point. And yet, he tried to burn them alive in a fire in front of their mother.
Ashfur tried to kill four cats. Four innocent cats, who had done absolutely nothing to him. While both of his attempts were unsuccessful, he still made those attempts, meaning he was always a murderer at heart, even if he had never actually murdered someone.
Secondly, trying to kill someones’ kits because they rejected you is an insane thing to do. Burning them alive in a fire in front of you is even more insane, and I think it shows that Ashfur–very clearly–had an unstable mind that was going to lead to murders in the future, had he been alive longer.
Ashfur did not try to kill Lionblaze in battle training! It was Lionblaze who got carried away and unseathed his claws during the practice and Ashfur was trying to protect himself because Lionblaze couldn’t stop himself.
Actually, no. While Ashfur didn’t try to kill Lionblaze, which I said, realizing the word was too strong, he (Ashfur) fought Lionblaze with claws unsheathed first, which was noted by someone during their POV, saying that Ashfur was being “too aggressive” with is apprentice. Furthermore, it’s emphasized many times that Ashfur showed no love and/or pride to/because of his apprentice.
And even if Ashfur didn’t try to harm Lionblaze during battle training (which i’m pretty sure he did), he still tried to kill Firestar, Lionblaze, Hollyleaf, and Jayfeather – all because of the concept of ‘revenge,’ which StarClan disguises as ‘loving too much.’
Lionblaze knew his power and lost control. They were both being aggressive. Also, Ashfur showed no hostility toward Lioblaze or his littermates until he cornered them in the fire, so I still do not think he had anything against Lionblaze and wanted to hurt him on purpose during that training. Honestly, I don’t think that ‘loving too much’ was a very strong argument and they definitely should have had a better reasoning, but the authors probably didn’t want to elaborate on that because there was another reason for Jayfeather to be speaking with Yellowfang, and it wasn’t about Ashfur.
I feel like Ashfur should have gone to the dark forest because a cat with a comparable, possibly less serious crime, did: Juniperclaw
Juniperclaw ALSO attempted murder, though this time only against one cat, and was sent to the dark forest for it. Just like Ashfur, nobody actually died, and one could say he had purer intentions, trying to in his mind save his clan from SkyClan’s “invasion” of his territory (in his mind) rather than getting personal, non-heroic revenge on a mostly good-hearted (any “crimes” against the warrior code she did were things StarClan told her to do) cat who slighted him romantically. Even ignoring his noble death, Juniperclaw did way less than Ashfur and was still sent to the dark forest. If we’re pretending StarClan is consistent (which they are NOT, but that’s another issue), Ashfur definitely deserves the dark forest on that comparison alone. In StarClan’s eyes, attempted murder is grounds to go to the Dark Forest, even if you try to make up for it after (which Ashfur never did, he still had the express motive of ruining Squirrelflight’s life and would have likely continued to do so had he still lived based on his behavior in The Broken Code), so I do think he should have gone to the Dark Forest.
that’s like saying uttering threats or attempt to commit murder shouldn’t be illegal because you didn’t actually harm anyone.
I do not think that, but point taken
so if someone tried to kill you irl you’d say they were a good person bc they didn’t actually kill you. okayyyyy…
I am not putting this situation irl and I don’t think he’s a perfect cat. What tried to do was bad, but I think he really deserved the Dark Forest more towards TBC
warriors has parallels to the real world, and putting it at all is putting it irl. and i never said perfect, i said good. what you’re saying is that he’s good.
What couples that never worked in canon, do you think should have happened or gone in a way of your desire? (Ex: One of them died, they broke up, etc.)
Well mine will probably be a really hated opinion but I really wanted Crowfeather and Leafpool to run away together. This is not because of my Crowfeather fan bias but seriously, I thought it should have happened. Yes, them returning to the clans shows their morally good (basically Leafy’s morally good) character and probably caused more drama to the plot. Though, at that moment, it would have been… realistic. Instead, it’s that dramatic break up causing growing hate and unhealthiness.
Running away together might have been unique and idk just an inspirational change. What about the whole other plot? I feel like Leafpool’s absence could have been a good cause to bring back the telepathic connection with Squilf.
And again, my opinion has probably a LOT of errors in it (at least it got rid of breezepelt /jjjjj) but what are some couple stuff u that you strongly support that should have happened?
I really wish that Jay x Briar was cannon. I just love Jay x Briar. I don’t know how it would’ve become cannon, but I would’ve loved if it did.
Edit: Speedy Snowy!
SAME! Maybe the Erins would’ve made it canon if fan demand didn’t make them rush Half Moon x Jay feather.
Agreed. I don’t really like Jay x Half that much because I feel like the whole Jayfeather-used-to-be-Jay-Wing-and-now-has-a-bunch-of-visions-as-being-part-of-the-tribe pretty boring, and I sorta skipped through those parts of PoT tbh, but I could also just not like it bc I love Jay x Brair so much 😛
Sandgorse in Tallstar’s Revenge sucks. (Sandgorse got better in Starclan though)
When Tallpaw almost drowns (yes drowns) in a tunnel, Tallpaw is honest towards his mentor Dawnstripe why he’s so scared and obviously bedraggled, and Dawnstripe tells Woollytail, who told Heatherstar. Sandgorse immediately blames his son just bc he was the one who almost drowned. He calls his son a tattle-tale, a rabbit heart, and selfish for someone else’s own decision of telling Heatherstar about an altercation in the tunnels. Sandgorse should have been mad at Woollytail of all cats, since Woollytail, a fellow tunneler, was willing to risk telling Heatherstar such a thing.
Why did Sandgorse truly blame Tallpaw? Because Tallpaw chose to be a moor runner and Sandgorse was bitter. But that is no excuse. Sandgorse found every possible excuse to blame his son just to make him feel worse about him being a moor runner.
I agree. Sandgorse is a terrible father.
Agreed. Palebird also wasn’t the greatest mother- she seemed to distance herself from her kits following Sandgorse’s death. She is what Sparkpelt would’ve become if Squirrelstar hadn’t helped her.
That’s terrible ughhh I did not remember that part of the book 🙁