Need a break from the hubbub of the rest of the blog? Or perhaps you just want a quiet page to discuss Warriors in depth. In any case, feel free to unwind in the Elders’ Den!
[a very fluffy grey cat with thick fur around its neck, long whickers, and yellow eyes stares into the camera]
What exactly is this page, then? It’s a place to discuss, in detail, particular aspects of the Warriors series – to pick apart ideas and themes that perhaps either get overlooked elsewhere or require a nuanced perspective. And more broadly, it’s a quiet refuge away from the bustle of the rest of the blog!
If there is a more serious subject you’d like to discuss within the Warriors universe, remember to remain respectful of what people are saying and to handle the topics in question with the necessary care and respect. Does this mean this is a page solely for discussing controversial topics? Of course not, but rather if they appear, the mods ask that everyone involved remain calm and thoughtful – should a discussion verge too far into argument territory, we may step in and put an end to it.
[a ginger-and-white tabby cat squeezes its eyes closed as it licks its pawpad]
If you’re looking for a general place to talk about Warriors but you feel like your comment doesn’t quite fit the Elder’s Den, check out the Sunning Patch!
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Who do you guys think killed Reedwhisker?
My theory: Blazefire and Lightleap were involved in it. The rock fall could’ve been a distraction. Also, Mothwing and Curlfeather could also be part of it. Mothwing wasn’t really as crushed about Reeds death as she was Mistystars. Yes I do get that she knew Mistystar for a long time, but still, a bit fishy.
And anyone remember Curlfeathers last words? “Trust no cat.”?
And Splashtail be acting all suspiscious…
No? Am I just overthinking?
Either Splashtail or Duskfur in my opinion. They both are part of the Jerk Brigade this arc (Berryheart, Whorlpelt, Yarrowleaf, Duskfur, Splashtail, possibly Mallownose, Shimmerpelt, and maybe a few others), and Splashtail was shown in the spoilers to be an antagonist. Reedwhisker recognized the cat killing him, and that might indicate that it would just be any Clan cat, but I think it’s more likely to be a RiverClan cat. Splashtail is the obvious choice, but if they wanted to give Duskfur more of a role, that would make sense.
I highly doubt Mothwing is evil. I personally don’t like her much, but they wouldn’t just throw away everything about her just to twist the plot. And Curlfeather was probably somehow involved with the Jerk Brigade, but now she’s dead and can’t do anything about anything. I think her ‘trust no cat’ thing was trying to hint a warning to Frostpaw about the Jerk Brigade and their intentions. Perhaps the RiverClan part of the Jerk Brigade poisoned Mistystar, killed Reedwhisker, and are trying to manipulate Frostpaw to agree to being a medicine cat so they could have a powerful (even more so with the code changes) ally to give them all the power they could ever need. And maybe Duskfur or Splashtail want all of it to themselves, so they led dogs to Curlfeather Tigerclawstar style and watched her die.
And Lightleap and Blazefire have been portrayed to be innocent cats there to develop Sunbeam’s emotions, so I thing they’re irrelevant now, except perhaps to give us more main characters for Arc 9.
wow. if reading that comment told me anything, it was that I need to read the new warrior book, I lost my warrior’s spark and vision of shadow, but wow…
Oh wow.. thats very very detailed!
Now that I think about it it could’ve been either of them. And like Shades said Lightleap witnessed it.
Maybe.
Probably, yes.
My theory (that i don’t want to be true but i think it is) is that Splashtail killed Reedwhisker and Lightleap saw it. She told her dad who took over RiverClan because he knows who the traitors are. I hope this isn’t true but i think it will be
I think Splashtail was involved in it. In the books, it says that Reedwhisker recognized whoever attacked him, and was too shocked to defend himself. That probably whoever killed him was from Riverclan; and someone he knew well. Splashtail was acting suspicious, and it seems like he is manipulating Frostpaw. He keeps on trying to persuade her to remain a medicine cat, and seemed unhappy when she was hesitant about it. I think he wants a friend in a powerful position, like how Hawkfrost made Mothwing a medicine cat to gain power with the torn wing even when she didn’t have a connection to Starclan. I think Lightleap saw what happened and told Tigerstar 2, (her father.)
I think Splashtail was involved in it. In the books, it says that Reedwhisker recognized whoever attacked him, and was too shocked to defend himself. That probably whoever killed him was from Riverclan; and someone he knew well. Splashtail was acting suspicious, and it seems like he is manipulating Frostpaw. He keeps on trying to persuade her to remain a medicine cat, and seemed unhappy when she was hesitant about it. I think he wants a friend in a powerful position, like how Hawkfrost made Mothwing a medicine cat to gain power with the torn wing even when she didn’t have a connection to Starclan. I think Lightleap saw what happened and told Tigerstar 2, (AKA her father.) Also, Splashtail might not have wanted Curlfeather to become leader, maybe because she pieced everything together, and led the dogs to attack her. Curlfeather’s last words were, “Trust no cat,” so she must’ve known it was Splashtail and was warning Frostpaw.
I think that Splashtail did it
Splashtail’s definitely not good. He definitely had something to do with it, and he definitely does not have feelings for Frostpaw..
Splashtail. Definitely.
SPLASHTAIL *side eye*
I swear this “Trust no cat.” IS MAKING SO MANY THEORIES UIRHFDCIWHQIDWIDAHSAHFIAHDG
Your over thinking it. Its probably Splashtail for no absolute reason!
I don’t think Blazefire could have killed him. I kind of think Lightleap might have done it. But there is a possibility Blazefire did it. But how could Mothwing do it??????
*me reading this after having read Thunder a few weeks ago* Uhhh… 👀 👀
That IS actually good, but I also want to add that starclan might have sent the dogs to attack only Curlfeather and that Splashtail might have also been a part of it and layed the curled feather outside the moonpool.
Many BlogClanner’s complain that Firestar is too perfect. However, Firestar made one serious, even grave mistake, that I have never seen mentioned here, and that is never seriously explored in the books. In Fading Echoes, Ivypaw is training in the Dark Forest, but has not yet become ThunderClan’s spy. Tigerstar tells her that ShadowClan is planning to invade ThunderClan’s territory. The reason, he says, is that Firestar ceded a piece of territory that TC didn’t use to them long ago, and that SC sees that as a sign of weakness. He tells her that she must convince Firestar to take back the ceded territory in order to protect TC. She agrees to do this, and she tells Firestar that she received this message in a dream (presumably from StarClan). She believes that she is helping her clan, and doesn’t understand that Tigerstar is doing this to make trouble between the clans.
Firestar believes Ivypaw and, after consulting with senior warriors, decides to take back the territory in question. He gives an ultimatum to ShadowClan, saying that ThunderClan will set new scent marks at a certain time and, if ShadowClan doesn’t accept the new borders, he will fight for them. A battle ensues in which Firestar looses a life and Russetfur, the ShadowClan deputy, is killed by Lionblaze. In other words, Firestar starts an unnecessary battle for an unjust cause, on a very flimsy pretext. This is very unlike Firestar’s normal behavior; he typically prefers negotiation and diplomacy, and only fights as a last resort.
I expected there to be consequences from this act, but the battle is never mentioned again in the book and it appears that both the authors and the characters have completely forgotten it. When Firestar learned that Ivypool had been training in the DF, did he figure out that he’d been tricked? Did Ivypool ever confess that she’d tricked him and that the idea came from Tigerstar? We don’t know, because, as I said previously, the battle is never mentioned again. In my opinion, if Firestar did figure out what happened (and he’d have to have been pretty stupid not to have), he’d have owed an abject apology to Blackstar and ShadowClan for his unjust actions.
Was anyone else disturbed by this?
I think Firestar’s flaw is that he puts too much trust in StarClan. He attacked ShadowClan, first and foremost, because he thought StarClan had told them to. You’re right, it was a flimsy reason. But for Firestar, it was enough, because of his faith. I think that was the part of the whole point of the battle, though. To show that the Clans were blindly trusting StarClan, and that the Dark Forest was growing powerful. After all, what is one of the main themes of OOTS? That StarClan is weaker than they want the Clans to believe. The battle was just a plot point to move forward other plot points. It didn’t do anything in and of itself, just moved forward other situations. It caused ShadowClan to be mistrustful of ThunderClan, which added fuel to the fire of Littlecloud and Flametail’s visions, which caused Flametail to die, which allowed him to be in StarClan to talk to Jayfeather later. The battle was simply a domino in a long chain.
Also, this isn’t even the first time Firestar messed up because he had too much blind trust in StarClan! In Midnight, he kept separating Brambleclaw and Squirrelpaw because he wanted to keep the fire and tiger prophecy from occurring. Which- come on, Firestar, you of all cats should know you can’t stop a prophecy. Stoopid.
Most clan cats have faith in StarClan—with the exception of a few skeptics like Cloudtail and Mothwing—that’s the way they’re raised. Firestar has his own special reasons for believing. After all, they chose him to be recruited into ThunderClan and to ultimately become its leader, via the “fire will save the clan” prophecy.
But Ivypool’s “dream” was unlike a typical StarClan prophecy or omen. It was a straightforward picture of coming events, rather than a riddle or cryptic collection of images. That alone should have made him suspicious. Of course, at that point no cat knew that cats were being trained in the DF. Jayfeather could easily have scanned Ivypool’s mind and found the truth, but for some reason, he didn’t.
In any case, FIrestar acted rather impulsively and without solid evidence, and that was a serious mistake and not at all typical of his character.
I think it was a bit strange, yes, but I’m not sure it was a flaw in his character as it was just a misunderstood and a wrong move. Firestar believed he was acting in the will of StarClan. That’s not a flaw
I agree!
I agree, but Firestar still isn’t a mary sue
what is everyone’s most hated cat in warriors.
This would be better suited for the Sunning Patch, as this is for more in depth discussion ^^
What Ospreysplash said, but I really hate Finchlight and Sparkpelt! They bullied Nightheart and didn’t at all respect him before he left ThunderClan! Also Tigerstar 2, for all the garbage he pulled in the recent arcs.
Gosh yeah Finchlight and Sparkpelt were so rude and cruel to their brother/son and it was honestly disgusting for me to read
Absolutely agreed.
I agree so much!! Especially Sparkpelt.
Hawkfrost, he barely did anything until the sixth book, but we knew he was evil from the first! It was annoying!
Tigerstar 2 probably 🙂
WE REALLY NEED TO HaVe a ChAt SILVO
NOOOO TANSY PLEASEEEEE
Shades, you have to help me convince Tanzy not to kill me over my hatred of Tigerstar 2 😛 You are the best at telling people the flaws behind Tigerstar. 😛
Gladly 😀
A lot of my issues with Tiger come from TigerXDove (he loved where when she was literally a child, manipulated her and gaslit her, lied to her many times, kidnapped her sister, etc) but he has plenty of flaws on his own. He’s always seen as this super responsible and noble cat when he’s really not. He never takes responsibility for his bad actions and never actually earns or deserves anything he gets (Viperfrost wrote an awesome article about this: https://blogclan.katecary.co.uk/2023/03/17/tigerstar-ii-an-exercise-in-frustration-by-viperfrost/) he lets his emotions control him and is very entitled. He thinks he can do whatever he wants and puts himself above anything and anyone else. He’s selfish and vague and manipulative and it’s not okay. One of my biggest problems is that he’s portrayed as a good guy when I’ve met people like Tigerheart and they are not as good as tiger is shown to be
Thistleclaw because Spottedleaf’s Heart
Oh yeah, I hate Thistleclaw too
Stormtail
YES! He was the WORST father EVER. He never paid attention to his kits, and basically only talked to Bluefur after her sister had literally just been RUN OVER by a CAR. And only because Thistleclaw was screaming in her face like the jerk he is.
AAAASHHHHHFURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRr
Yes I TOTALLY AGREE
Darkstripe. No comment.
No comment necessary, we all get it 😛
Tigerstar 2, 100%
Jagged Peak and Holly (they’re a package)
Agreed, Jagged Peak suddenly got so annoying after he met Holly and I share what Grey Wing felt!
YESSS ESPECIALLY WHEN MOTH FLIGHT CAME BACK
TRAITORSTRIPE >:( (It’s Darkstripe in case you were wondering)
I noticed something odd about Warriors, something I don’t think anyone else has noticed.
Firestar and Harestar are oddly similar in several ways.
Hear me out. Firestar, when speaking to Tallstar about stopping the battle with Bluestar, was disobeying his leader to do the right thing, though many called it rash and disrespectful. He also came from a less than respected background, being a kittypet, and was made deputy at a young age.
Harestar, when giving yellowcough treatment to ShadowClan behind Onestar’s back, as disobeying his leader to do the right thing, though many called it rash and disrespectful. He also came from a less than respected background, being a former Dark Forest trainee, and was made deputy at a young age.
What do y’all think? Do you agree with this?
Huh, never thought of it that way! Can’t say I totally agree, but interesting opinion!
Huh, that’s very interesting! I never thought of that before, but now that it’s laid out like that, yeah, I totally see it.
That’s interesting!
Oh my, you’re right! They are rather similiar!
i love swiftpaw so much omg
i feel like everyone is so focused on the big event with the dogs and brightpaw, that they forget he was a character before the dog attack too. he was always a more reserved cat, and adopted longtail’s personality when he became an apprentice. i honestly liked him more than brightheart when i first read the books (tbh i probably still feel that way haha) because i related to him a lot more!
but speaking of the dog attack, there’s one important detail in the books concerning it that everyone seems to gloss over. as quoted from a dangerous path, after cloudtail’s warrior ceremony and right before swiftpaw’s death: “[…] the other cats began to crowd around, greeting cloudtail by his new name and congratulating him. fireheart breathed a sigh of relief that the awkward moment was over. but he couldn’t help noticing that longtail was nowhere to be seen, and the apprentices waited until the very end to come up, led by brightpaw, each mewing a few quick, subdued words before slipping away again. swiftpaw was not among them.” (pages 209-210 if you want to see for yourself!)
correct me if im wrong, but doesn’t this make canon swiftpaw completely different from fanon swiftpaw? just putting the sentences i bolded together, you can clearly tell that swiftpaw was most likely manipulated by longtail in his decision to leave camp and search for the dogs. this does not make him impulsive or immature; gullible, maybe, but not nearly as bad as what everyone portrays him to be. from the beginning you can see that swiftpaw is an anxious cat in his apprentice ceremony, and (from personal experience) it’s natural to copy other more confident people when you are nervous or scared like he was – making him very easily influenced by his mentor. in my opinion, it’s completely unfair to judge swiftpaw so heavily for what he did, no matter if he was warrior age or not, since he was very likely manipulated by longtail from the day he became an apprentice.
what do you guys think of all this?
Poor kitty just wanted to be a warrior!
I get why people like Swiftpaw but he’s never been appealing to me. Hes portrayed as super brave when he was just being selfish and prideful, and he mightve been manipulated by Longtail but we don’t know. Besides, this was when Longtail was like a decent guy, so i doubt he would do that, especially to his own brother. Also, Swiftpaw wasn’t a child anymore. He was months past his expected warrior ceremony. According to the wiki, he was 20 moons old when he died. That’s older than Nightheart. So this is a grown man who’s jealous of a teenager’s achievement, so he goes and does something foolish out of pride and is praised like a hero. He’s not a child anymore. Maybe it was good that he was forced to wait, imo he was extremely immature and should be treated as such by the other characters
honestly i still think his situation wasn’t as outlandish as many people make it out to be. as you stated he was moons past when he should’ve become a warrior, and cloudtail was made a warrior even though he was still pretty young. the whole mood during cloudtail’s warrior ceremony isn’t great, with bluestar “dragging every word out of her mouth” (i think that’s what the book said), and i’m pretty sure all the apprentices were aware of how unfair it was given they didn’t congratulate him much beyond a few quick words. i think it’s very easy to sympathize with him when you look at the scenario: imagine you’ve been in school for way longer than you should’ve been, you’re getting good grades and you’re doing everything you’re supposed to, but you’re still being held back because the head of the school is not mentally well. then suddenly a random teenager with mediocre grades graduates because the head of the school favors them. idk, i’d be pretty fed up by then haha. keep in mind that swiftpaw has already more than proven himself, and cloudtail essentially did nothing and became a warrior.
also, as an aside, i don’t think he was just “jealous of a teenager’s achievment”, it was probably more anger at bluestar than anything else which i think is totally justified. even though bluestar was going through some stuff, the fact that she made cloudtail a warrior just like that is outrageous. between the two of them, swiftpaw absolutely deserved to become a warrior way more. given this, he wasn’t praised like a hero for being jealous, he was praised for standing up against bluestar for what he thought was right – maybe not in the best way, but at least he did something. idk if it’s mentioned in the books, but i hope what he did showed all the other thunderclan cats how unfit bluestar was to be leader in her mental state.
(also, he’s had longtail as a mentor since fire and ice iirc, so old bad longtail at least planted some seeds in his mind. he even jeered at cloudkit with longtail when he first came into the clan, which definitely impacted him, especially at such an impressionable age)
I definitely sympathize with Swiftpaw! I’ve definitely been in situations where someone less qualified has been unfairly rewarded, but i still think that his response was insane. He knew that the thing at snakerocks was dangerous, but he thought he could take it because he was warrior aged. And remember, while he was fighting the dogs to stand up against bluestar for what he thought was right, his motives were selfish. His opinion of ‘right’ was a promotion for himself. Yes, he was qualified, but if you had a coworker who was always bragging about how he was ready to be in a higher role or something, that wouldn’t be someone i would want in a higher position. I sympathize with Swiftpaw and i think he was qualified, but i think he was immature and prideful, so i don’t really love him. Besides, renaming Brightpaw to Lostface showed Bluestar’s mental state rather than Swiftpaw’s death.
Also, Longtail cared a lot for Swiftpaw. I don’t think he would manipulate him, at least not intentionally
Ehh, I was never fond of him. And I think Longtail could have been actually looking for Swiftpaw instead; he could have been worried that his apprentice had gone to do something rash. After all, he was his mentor, and he probably knew how Swiftpaw had been feeling. Besides, Swiftpaw was warrior-aged at that point, and he would have had the ability to make decisions for himself, even if Longtail had been influencing him for a very long time. I just think it’s a bit of a stretch to think that Longtail had manipulated Swiftpaw.
that definitely could have been the case, but with the way these sentences are presented in the books in the middle of an uneasy sort of scene, both theories could work here. also, longtail was also angry that swiftpaw was not made a warrior, so if he expressed this to swiftpaw it wouldn’t be so hard for the idea of fighting the dogs to come along. and swiftpaw’s age in this case is irrelevant, because it’s not just physical age that denotes how good you are at decision making and critical thinking. for most of swiftpaw’s young [teenage] life, longtail wasn’t the greatest cat, and a lot of that personality rubbed off on swiftpaw (it’s even explicitly shown in a few scenes). the stuff you experience during your childhood, especially your teenagehood, impacts you for the rest of your life. (this is also taking into account swiftpaw’s anxious personality, which may have caused him to talk to the other apprentices less and therefore get less different opinions, hindering his growth as a person. the only reason he talked to everyone right before his death is because he was angry and making an angry speech.) he definitely did have the ability to make his own decisions, but those decisions are heavily skewed based on his experiences is all i’m trying to say 🙂
Interesting theory. It’s been too long since I read TPB for me to have a clear picture of the events leading up to Swiftpaw’s death. I know that Longtail was initially a follower of TIgerclaw/star but eventually became a loyal supporter of Firestar, but I don’t remember when/how the transition happened or what his state was during these events.
I do feel bad for Swiftpaw and I did enjoy certain aspects of his personality, but to be completely honest, he never really stood out to me. He always sort of got on my nerves and though, as you rightfully mentioned, he was heavily influenced by his mentor Longtail, his hostility toward Firestar always irked me. It was like Swiftpaw’s super shy, sweet, awkward personality that made me go “aww <3" just completely vanished and he got a lot more confident. Which, of course, is a good thing because being confident is great, and I know that Swiftpaw is loved by his peers, but I feel like that confidence turned into arrogance. Like Shades said, Swiftpaw was grown up at the time where he went to attack the dogs. It's completely valid for him to be jealous of Cloudtail's success, since Cloudtail is so much younger than him. But surely, Swiftpaw should have known that he had no chance against a pack of dogs. Swiftpaw was qualified to be a warrior, his annoyance at Bluestar was 100% valid and so was his urges to do something to prove himself – but I don't like the way he decided to prove himself.
What Swiftpaw did is sort of the equivalent of if we, as humans, decided to go fight off a lion with our bare hands. Obviously, you are going to get bitten and most likely killed. Any reasonable person wouldn't do that. But Swiftpaw, for some reason, thought he could. But not only did he do something very, very dumb, he let Brightpaw come along and completely altered her life. though it all worked out in the end, it did make things really hard for Brightheart.
Also, ALL the apprentices were upset that they hadn't been made warriors, but only Swiftpaw was silly enough to try and fight off a pack of dogs. Also, Longtail loved Swiftpaw and though he def influenced Swiftpaw, I don't think Longtail would have encouraged Swiftpaw to do anything like that. 🙂
If Swiftpaw had sucked it up like the other apprentices, the dogs would have been dealt with and Swiftpaw would have been made a warrior. I feel like there were other alternatives that Swift could have chosen.
I feel bad for him ig, but he still annoys me.
im pretty sure when swiftpaw went out to fight the dogs, he didnt know they were dogs – he actually didn’t plan on fighting anything nearly as dangerous, he just wanted to find who was stealing the prey. i could be totally wrong, but thats just what i remember haha
i agree with all your other points though 🙂
Oh wait you’re completely correct 😭 I checked the books and Swiftpaw went to fight whatever was stealing ThunderClan’s prey, he didn’t know it was dogs. This definitely makes me like him a bit more.
I disagree, i dislike swiftpaw
We all know Firestar is overrated…
Or do we? We all think Fire is overrated, but we say that so much now he’s basically underrated. NO ONE likes him. He is not overrated at all now.
I personally like Firestar. I know that he is flawless (or close enough to it that you have to make a mountain out of a molehill to find anything close to a flaw), but he was just such a hero his whole life and really proved to the Clan that he was a good cat. I think he’s underrated as well.
(Although in the future, a comment like this should probably go on the Sunning Patch!)
Whoops I never know!
I agree
I disagree (about the Sunning Patch). That post resulted in a lively and and thoughtful discussion, which is what I like to see here.
well, a lot of people who read the books but don’t participate in the fandom still really like firestar, as i’ve found!
I like him just fine. I have no problem with him being the hero of the first several story arcs. He is not perfect (I wrote about a serious mistake he made, above), but he usually does the right thing, even when breaking the rules. I can’t imagine the series without him.
I really like him >:) And I think Firestar is pretty well-liked among BlogClanners and other Warriors fans!
That’s not true, I’ve seen lots of people say they love Firestar.
I think the issue is that Firestar is rarely someone’s favorite character, but people still like him. I personally don’t like him much as I think he’s a Gary Stu, but plenty of people still like him and even i can admit that the series wouldn’t exist or be what we know it to be without him
I’ll say he was my favorite in TPB. Firestar’s Quest is one of my favorite SEs.
Firestar’s Quest was one of my favorite warriors books and I agree, he used to be my favorite character, but i just feel like there are sooo many characters that it’s rare for him to be a favorite now.
Also i don’t think I know this, but who’s your favorite character WhiteWhiskers?
I don’t really have one overall favorite. There are, as you say, lots of good characters who I like while I’m reading their particular stories. But the ones who stick with me are the earnest good guys who try to do what’s best, who are never motivated by greed, or lust for power or self aggrandisement. Firestar, Graystripe (I have a long article about him, probably coming out in December) Graywing, Riverstar are the ones that come immediately to mind.
Gray Wing is one of my favorites too! He always tried to be good, but he also made mistakes. And he had health struggles! Hooray for a different type of conflict with a main character!
Really? I thought everyone thought he was overrated and no one liked him…. Glad I brought this up, I’m not alone to think Firestar is cool!
I love Firestar! I recognize that he can be a little too perfect, but the nostalgia will always get me with him. I loved him in TPB, and I think some people forget how many doubts he had, and how he actually DID make mistakes. And sometimes he’s a lil’ dumb, but I forgive him <3
But seriously. "Beware the enemy who seems to sleep??" Well gee whiz I wonder who that could be.
I love Firestar! He is pretty close to perfect, but i love him anyway and he does have some flaws, like judging Brambleclaw for no reason other than how similar to his dad he looks and trying so hard to separate Bramb and Squilf he only made them want to see each other more. idk, i just love him <3
Firestar is one of my fav. characters! Without him, the whole series wouldn’t exist or it would take a completely different path. Out of millions of possibilities, the Erins chose this idea.
I am happy to see so many speak up for Firestar. I am very tired of reading that he’s “too perfect”, a “Gary Stu”, etc. He’s the hero of the first arc, so of course he’s better than others. He embodies positive traits like compassion and diplomacy. He remains a central character until his death in the great battle. As others have said, the series as we know it would not exist without him. I’m not sure how anyone can love Warriors and hate Firestar.
Well, I like him, but he’s not my favorite character, He used to be but…after awhile of Firestar ‘this’ and Firestar ‘that’ you kinda get bored of it, I guess
I honestly DO like him buuut I just hate how he’s the one to do everything. Other than that, he’s pretty good
Yeah, those were exactly my thoughts 😛
Lol 😛
talking a bit more about firestar :)
i’ve always found it weird that people hate firestar for being “too perfect”: not only is that statement untrue, but him being all golden-hearted is pretty crucial to his character – if firestar had any thoughts of ambition or violence in tpb, the theme of the story would in my opinion be pretty weakened. the story is about success being dependent on your actions rather than your background, which firestar’s character is perfect for, especially when combined with tigerclaw. firestar may have been a kittypet, but his strong morals and passion make him much stronger than the clan-born tigerclaw. firestar doesn’t have those doubts and actions because he doesn’t need them – tigerclaw is meant to be that example, not firestar. the thoughts of ambition and violence a young book protagonist would typically have are replaced by the thoughts of kittypet life, which strengthen the book’s theme even more.
what i do understand, though, is the annoyance at firestar’s actions after tpb. after the first arc, firestar should be a complete character; he should be the perfect role model. he is no longer the hero of the story, but the mentor, and his personality should fit accordingly. and yet, he still makes mistakes as if he is still the focus of the story, and even worse, they try and make him the main character again in oots. i’d be fine if firestar made the occassional mistake, since that would make him feel more realistic, but this is the cat we’ve watched grow and develop over the course of an entire arc. he shouldn’t be so immature and impulsive. i’ve found that a lot of stories in general nowadays have trouble with completing their main characters and moving on (which is pretty understandable, especially if the main character is iconic to your story), but i think the way that firestar’s story has been dragged out is ridiculous. he does not have to be the main character for every arc.
this is all just my opinion, and i’m curious to hear what other people think!
edit (adding to the rant): in particular, firestar kind of annoyed me in tnp, when he started acting really strange and angry at squirrelpaw and brambleclaw after cinderpelt received the fire tiger prophecy. i feel like he should know better by now than to jump to conclusions and act impulsively; going off my goldfish memory, forming plans with his warriors before acting was even a crucial part of his development in tpb. so yeah, that’s just a specific example of what i’m talking about
I think it’s mostly here on BlogClan where most people hate him 😛 Other fans who I see on other sites adore him and he’s very loved!
He seems pretty equally loved and hated from what I’ve seen, so I wouldn’t call him overrated or underrated. Personally I like Firestar! While I wasn’t the biggest fan in the beginning, he grew into a kind and fair leader that ThunderClan was forever proud of. I don’t think he’s a Gary-Stu either, which is the reason many people hate on him. I find his dependence on StarClan can lead him to make rash decisions at times without knowing the truth/consequences. An example would be the fire and tiger sign Cinderpelt received, which caused him to separate Bramblestar and Squilf when they weren’t doing anything wrong.
Quick reminder for everyone: Spoilers for Thunder should go on the Thunder Spoiler Page (https://blogclan.katecary.co.uk/2023/01/31/thunder-spoiler-page/) for the next two months! We won’t be modding any comments that contain spoilers for Thunder on other pages until after those two months are up, as per our spoiler policy 🙂
Thanks Embix!
Does it count if I call Squirrelflight Squirrelstar?
It’s a bit of a grey area because it was revealed in the teaser, so I will tentatively say no, but if you include anything she does as leader, then yes, that would be a spoiler.
Ty Ember for reminding us!
thanks for the reminder!
What do y’all think about Juniperclaw? I think he was treated extremely unfairly by StarClan and the living cats. All of his peers went to StarClan because they were ‘misguided’ but not evil cats. Why not Juniperclaw? I’m not saying what he did, poisoning SkyClan’s prey, was right, but that one thing shouldn’t have determined how his entire existence would go. And he redeemed himself time and time again after that. He sacrificed his life to save a drowning kit who had very little to do with him. He managed to be emotionally stable enough to remain a good cat throughout his years in the Dark Forest. He even fought, risking his entire afterlife, in a battle on the side of the same cats who shunned him for one thing he did. And then he didn’t even act like he expected to go to StarClan. But StarClan was still smug to him, even when he decided to spend his entire afterlife guarding their own mistake.
“These cats have always lived outside the code. They were rogues within their Clans. They are rogues now. That’s why they’re here. They never deserved to be called warriors.” -Spottedleaf about the Dark Forest cats.
Does that at all describe Juniperclaw? He was a loyal and brave warrior. His only sin was being misguided by his peers and the Kin. He died saving a kit. He fought tirelessly in a battle he could have hid from.
Why is he in the Dark Forest? He didn’t even do something that bad! Is making Sparrowpelt sick because that is what you were taught was right so much worse than leaving your own children out in a freezing leaf-bare, to the point where one died of hypothermia, so you could have power?
So much worse than attempting to burn your own crush and her children alive because she liked someone other than you?
So much worse than shunning and ignoring your own son, as well as trying to make his remaining life horrible, because he looked weird?
Because they went to StarClan, and Juniperclaw didn’t. I know this post was kind of a rant, but what do y’all think? Because I see no reason Juniperclaw is not living among the stars.
AAAAA OMG DON’T EVEN GET ME STARTED
The pure, unfiltered RAGE I felt while reading the scene when Juniperclaw had to sit in that HOLE between StarClan and the DF. LIKE WHAT THE HECK????
StarClan. StarClan. They make me SO MAD. Juniperclaw lived his life as a brave, loyal warrior. His entire, dang life. Then he unsuccessfully tried to poison a cat, saved a kit and died. Then he was sent to rot in the Dark Forest.
You know who else unsuccessfully tried to kill someone?
It’s that RAT Ashfur. So Ashfur literally tried to murder an entire family, tried to tear them apart with a secret but nooooo NO his only mistake was “loving too much.”
But Juniperclaw’s only mistake wasn’t his love for his Clan, was it? No, apparantly not.
Then Hollyleaf murdered a cat and hid for ages, but no, she can go up to StarClan because she died nobly in the end, saving Ivypool <3 You know who else died a noble death? JUNIPERCLAW, SAVING A LITERAL KIT WHO HAPPENED TO BE VERY CRITICAL TO THE CLANS’ SURVIVALS.
And all the Clan cats have made mistakes. But they are forgiven. But apparantly Juniperclaw is unforgivable??
And then when he fought a battle to save the Clans, he just gets to sit alone in a black pit for eternity.
IT’S SO FRUSTRATING-
When I read the part where Juniper died, I thought, Ok, he’s gonna go to StarClan. After all, hadn’t he already somewhat ‘redeemed’ himself?
Yes, poisoning a clan’s fresh-kill pile is abominable, but he saved another kit’s life! He realized what he did was wrong and was sorry for it.
That’s a remarkable character, not everyone can acknowledge the fact that they did something wrong and is willing to learn from it.
When Juniper realized he was in the wrong, he tried everything to show that he was sorry.
He saved Violetshine and Shadowkit, and his last words before death were, ‘Tell Tigerstar I’m sorry.”
I think that Juniperclaw should have gone to StarClan.
I never really understood why Ashfur was in StarClan, though Yellowfang said that his only fault was that he loved too much. Seriously? His only fault was loving too much? He attempted to kill his crush and her kits and his only fault was loving too much?
I think the real question is this, Is StarClan’s judgement always correct?
StarClan’s judgment is sideways and should not be trusted, that’s for sure
Yeah everyone forgets but he saved Violetshine too! Who was expecting kits so he saved not one which everyone says but four!
i don’t know much about juniperclaw, but you wrote a fantastic summary, and i agree! starclan’s judgment has always been awful…
I AGREE!!! Juniperclaw definitely deserves StarClan!
I wrote an article about this, I agree 100%
https://blogclan.katecary.co.uk/2023/04/28/why-juniperclaw-doesnt-belong-in-the-dark-forest-by-shadeleap/
That article’s amazing, Shadey!
THIS. I LIVE FOR THIS. AYTYIUEGFHSDCGEHHLSDJSJCGFEHCDJAAAAAAA JUNIPERCLAW NEEDS STARCLANNNNNNNN.
this is true in every way. I agree with all of this. Juniperclaw is a good cat and he deserves StarClan, not the Dark Forest. Rainflower deserves the Dark Forest WAY more than him.
YES JUNIPERCLAW DESERVES STARCLAN
Ok I won’t say anything else because I’ll have you scrolling for hours if I start but he totally shouldn’t have been sitting in the DF and then still not even in StarClan where he belongs.
what are you guys’ opinions on mapleshade?
from what i’ve seen there are two main interpretations of her story. one interpretation paints her as the victim of starclan’s unfair rules: she can’t control her love for appledusk, but starclan decides to punish her anyway by sending the three reeds sign to ravenwing and then (presumably) flooding the river, killing her kittens. over and over in the story she is let down by everyone she trusted: oakstar exiles her, frecklewish insults her and her kittens, appledusk has cheated on her and then abandons her, even starclan is against her. this is the interpretaion i like to go with, even though i believe the other one is what the authors intended, because it makes mapleshade way more interesting.
the second interpretation is that mapleshade is an awful, evil cat. she is overly possessive of appledusk and she doesn’t care about anyone other than herself. in this interpretation, she only had kittens so that she and appledusk could be together, and appledusk is actually a decent cat who happened to get caught up in mapleshade’s selfish schemes. i personally dislike this interpretation because it makes mapleshade’s character boring. why would anyone want a villain who is basically just an entitled karen? i get the appeal behind pure-evil villains – in fact, i often like them better than sympathetic villains – but there are other villains in this category (from other franchises) who have much cooler backstories involving a lot more violence and less “annoyingness” from the villain in question. if the authors made it clear that this is the canon mapleshade, then i would honestly hate her, and that’s coming from a longtime mapleshade fan. (also, people who go with the interpretation (offsite people, that is!) tend to be pretty… obnoxious about their opinion, and multiple people i’ve met on other sites have actively shoved this interpretation in my face when i just mention mapleshade’s name. this makes me associate a lot of negativity with this interpretation, and should serve as a reminder to everyone to be respectful of people with differing opinions than you – especially if it’s about something as insignificant as a cat book series!)
i’m just curious what interpretation people on this site go with and why. a lot of people go with a mix between the two versions of her story, and others go with something completely different, which is interesting too!
My personal interpretation is not exactly either of those. I have said this somewhere on the blog previously: Mapleshade was not very bright, was capable of a high level of self delusion, and had incredibly bad luck. We know little of her life before the story begins, but in the course of the story, she did not make a single good decision. For a mate, she chose not just a warrior from another clan, but one from a clan that hers was at war with (bad judgement), and finally, a warrior who was responsible for the death of her leader’s son. (My understanding from the story is that the battle in which Birchface was killed happened after she and Appledusk had mated, so that is an instance of her bad luck, rather than bad judgment.)
She believed that when she eventually revealed who the father of her kits was, the clan would accept them and they would help bring peace between the two clans (self-delusion). She didn’t exactly tell the lie that Birchface was the father of her kits, but she goes along with Frecklewish’s mistaken belief that they are, and soon the whole clan believes it. This makes the clan all the angrier when they find that the real father is Birchface’s killer, and is, I think, the major factor in Oakstar exiling her (banishing a queen with young kits was a morally questionable action, but emotionally understandable under the circumstances). She could just has easily have said that the father was not Birchface, but she’s not saying who it is (bad decision).
She had no need to take the kits out of the camp to the river. Kits under apprentice age are not supposed to leave the camp (another bad decision). It was just bad luck that Ravenwing saw the kits swimming and interacting with Appledusk.
Now comes the worst decision of all—forcing three 2-moon old kits, who had only been in water once, to try to swim across a flooding river. Mapleshade herself bears most of the responsibility for the deaths of her kits, far more than any of the cats she blames. She could have easily have taken a few minutes to walk upstream to the twoleg bridge to cross safely. She didn’t, and the only reason I can think of for this is that the authors (who are more powerful than StarClan) wanted to make her a villain and so had to give her a motive for murder. It is her own guilt for the deaths of her kits, which she cannot face, that drives her mad and turns her into a killer. If I were her lawyer, I would plead her not guilty by reason of insanity, but unfortunately neither the clans nor StarClan recognize this defense.
I agree more with the first one, but not entirely because some of it I do think was her fault 🙂
My personal interpretation is that Mapleshade’s behavior should not be exused.
In the opening scenes of Mapleshade’s Vengeance it’s established that ThunderClan held Appledusk, her mate, responsible for Birchface’s death.
It’s bad luck that Mapleshade found out she was pregnant with Appledusk’s kits around this time, but what is her solution?
Lie about the identity of her kits father and allow her Clan to believe that Birchface, the cat he allegedly murdered, fathered them.
That’s just…inconsiderate and selfish on a whole other level.
Remember, her Clanmates are grieving for Birchface. Frecklewish probably wanted to believe that Maple’s kits were her brother’s out of longing. And Maple took advantage of that, knowing full well what she was doing.
Did she honestly expect her kits to be welcomed with opened arms after such disrespect?
She didn’t even show remorse. Instead she spun this narrative that it was Oakstar’s fault when she and her kits were exiled.
You could argue that she isn’t entirely responsible. The others involved should have accepted her children regardless of their personal feelings towards their father.
But I think that her kits would’ve been better received if she hadn’t pretended that their father was Birchface, instead of his alleged murderer.
While banishing a queen and her kits wasn’t a bright move on Oakstar’s part, Mapleshade’s reaction isn’t morally correct either.
She made her kits cross a flooding river with rapids. Again, knowing full well what she was doing. She just convinced herself that it was okay because they were half-RiverClan.
People often blame Frecklewish for letting them drown but fail to consider this-why did Mapleshade make them cross a river, knowing that it was dangerous?
The sheer guilt was too much for Maple to handle, so she did what she always did-convinced herself it was someone elses fault, and this time went on to murder.
Now, here, people often excuse her behavior, claiming she had schizophrenia, or some other disorder and essentially went insane.
I disagree.
There are definitely signs of a mental divergence, and no doubt the death of her kits caused her psyche to break.
But she wasn’t insane.
Each and every one of her murder’s were premeditated. And she showed no signs of remorse. In fact, her first reaction when she joins the dark forest? ‘[Mapleshade] had found a place where she truly belonged. From here, she could cause more suffering than when she had been alive’
So no, while she is definitely a victim of bad circumstances, I do not excuse her actions, because she reacted to those circumstances horribly, knowing full well what she was doing.
I agree with your reasoning ^^
I have sympathy for her pain and her circumstances, but not her actions. Her actions were horrible and unreasonable, and she knew what she was doing.
She sought revenge and revenge isn’t ever the answer.
Perhaps the worst of all, the quote from the dark forest shows she never truly acknowledged the terribleness of her own actions, and never felt remorse- instead she embraced the darkness. Which is, heartbreaking.
Because she could have sought forgiveness and redemption but instead she continued to seek the same flawed goal she’d been wrongly chasing after all.
Mapleshade’s story is a sad one, and while what her circumstances did to her was certainly a sad part of it, something that’s seldom talked about is the heartbreaking reality of what she did to herself.
She reacted to her circumstances in the worst ways, ways that further hurt her and everyone around her.
She sought revenge, which is never an answer and never helps anything. While forgiveness would have healed her, revenge drove her destruction.
Even in such a deep trap of mistakes and despair, there was still hope and Mapleshade could have chosen to swim for the light.
She could have chosen to forgive and seek forgiveness, which would have allowed her to heal.
But instead, rather than turning back at any point in remorse, she embraced the darkness and let it consume her- the part where she’s satisfied to be in the dark forest proves this heartbreaking ending she chose for herself- the complete rejection of morals and avoidance of repenting.
And in Mapleshade’s story, her self-destruction of choosing evil and thus killing her own hope, is the saddest part of it all.
I just want to add as an aside that I think Oakstar committed a very serious violation of the code when he exiled Mapleshade and her kits. Everyone talks about whether Frecklewish deserves the DF for failing to rescue the kits (I say no, BTW), but no one really seems to understand what Oakstar did in relation to the code. The code says “no warrior can neglect a kit in pain or danger, even if the kit is from a different Clan.” No exception is mentioned for mixed-clan kits. It stands to reason that no warrior can willingly put kits in danger, regardless of their clan. And that is exactly what Oakstar does when he exiles Mapleshade and her kits. I’m not talking about the river crossing, which he couldn’t foersee. He sends three clanborn kits, who have committed no crime, out to potentially live as rogues somewhere beyond the territories. Their mother will have to leave them alone in the nest with no one to care for them when she hunts for them and herself. There will be no one to treat them if them become ill. Their chances of survival are poor (like real feral kits). He has put them in danger by depriving them of the benefits of their clan birth. He has let his emotions overrun his responsibilities as a leader.
i strongly agree! even if he was grieving for his son, it would be understandable for him to take out his anger on mapleshade, not her kittens. this is the same with frecklewish calling the kittens “creatures”, but at least she showed grief over the kittens’ deaths later on, when she was less overcome with emotions. what oakstar did is the equivalent of putting a murderer and their young children in jail, even if the children didn’t do anything wrong.
I honestly feel like Mapleshade wasn’t that apologetic for her actions and liked being in the DF 😛 but I don’t necessarily think she deserved such a harsh punishment.
Mapleshade had a pretty good life, living happily in ThunderClan with a relationship with a cat from a different Clan who she thought loved her back.
Life was perfect.
Then when she had her kits, she let everyone assume who the father was even though it was a lie.
Her first mistake.
Then, when everyone found out who the real dad was, Oakstar exiled Mapleshade, but not before making it clear if Maple’s mate had been another tom he would have made a different choice.
Frecklewish literally followed this queen and her young, helpless kits to make sure they had left, which really shows her hatred for Mapleshade.
Then Mapleshade’s kits drowned and Appledusk got mad at her.
Realistically speaking, it is normal for couples to be split apart when this type of thing happens, but it is revealed Appledusk had been cheating on Mapleshade and he completely abandoned her.
Mapleshade was turned away from RiverClan.
Without her kits, filled with grief and guilt, without the support of a Clan or mate, Mapleshade began to her descent toward madness. She heard the three voices of her deceased kits, crying out for help.
Mapleshade saw only one way to give them peace.
Kill those who she believed were responsible.
And, in a way, each cat she killed had technically played a role in the death of her kits (not that they deserved to die).
The whole thing was a horrible, domino effect tragedy but Mapleshade was not of complete sound mind when she committed the murders.
She could hear her dead kits’ voices in her head, for crying out loud!
I just think she was judged a bit too harshly and painted out to be really terrible when Oakstar was the one who sent a queen and her kits away because of his own personal bitterness.
I mean, bad leader alert, right?
But to be fair, Mapleshade did bear most of the responsibility for her kits deaths, she had good intentions at first and was kind of insane sooo she should get some sympathy 😛
Honestly, Mapleshade could’ve been smarter with her actions, but love is love, and a lot of other cats were getting into cross clan relationships so it wasn’t too out of the ordinary. Unlike some cross clan relationships, she WAS dating the cat that murdered Oakstars son, so that was kinda bad on her part. But Oakstar kicked out a QUEEN AND HER KITS. At the very least just kick out Mapleshade. I think that’s it was a horrible idea to lie about the identity of her kits father, but Oakstar honestly should’ve banished just her. Then Mapleshade went into her villain arc and blah blah blah. I liked her villain arc, (she’s actually my favorite villain) but she should totally be held responsible for her actions, and so should Oakstar. Their both in the wrong tbh
gonna add onto this hee hee
mapleshade’s story has always been a touchy topic for me since i headcanon her as a psychopath. as a psychopath irl, i’ve experienced a lot of the things she’s experienced (delusions, shifting blame, thoughts of violence, lack of guilt/empathy, etc.) and to see people making fun of these things and talking about how she’s an awful person because of it just makes me feel bad about myself. i can’t really change the fact that i constantly experience delusions and intrusive thoughts about harming my loved ones, and from the looks of it, neither can mapleshade, seeing as she’s been experiencing delusions from the start of the book. mapleshade seems to have a higher degree of psychopathy than me (or she might have some other condition) so i can’t speak for her too much, but that’s just what i think. that being said, i’m not excusing her murders. mapleshade definitely falls into the “psychopathic murderer” trope which i loathe. all i’m saying is that the fandom should be more respectful of this character since, in general, it’s not cool to make fun of delusions and stuff like that.
I’m sorry you’re dealing with these conditions, Eggs. I had no idea. I hope your getting appropriate professional help and not trying to deal wit this on your own.
I’m sorry to hear that you’ve struggled with these disorders.
If my response was in anyway disrespectful or made you feel bad about yourself I deeply apologize and hold myself accountable for that <3
Hope you’re coping with that, Egg-
I hope I have never come off as making fun of Mapleshade. She’s complex, and I think it’s almost dangerous to fail to recognize that she is written as unreliable. I believe she was in the wrong, but mental health struggles are never something to laugh at. Mapleshade may have had issues, but the struggles somebody goes through doesn’t define them- and that goes for you too! Anybody can make an effort to make good decisions, but Mapleshade simply… didn’t. Did she need help? Yeah. But tons of people struggle through stuff like that daily with minimal help, and they choose, every day, to be more than a diagnosis. Mapleshade’s mental health struggles don’t make her blameless, it just makes her story so much more sorrowful. Imagine how things could have been, if she’d only gotten the help she needed.
I’m really sorry, Egg. 🙁 You’re an awesome and really sweet person and I’m really sorry if anyone’s ever made you feel like you’re a bad person 💖
I have an odd mix. I think she’s a sympathetic villain, but still ultimately in the wrong. I saw your comment about Mapleshade likely being psychopathic. Interesting theory! It would explain a lot of her thought process, but I still see her in the wrong. As I see it, a diagnosis doesn’t define a person. Their actions do. Yes, Mapleshade needed *help.* But she was also making her own decisions. Mapleshade could have taken a step back, and *chosen* to make better decisions. But she didn’t. She rationalized them within the confines of her own mind, twisting her story to make herself the brave hero, and everybody else the monsters hiding in the closet. I’m not saying everybody else was right. As I see it, pretty much everybody is a little a fault here. Oakstar showed nepotism at it’s finest. Frecklewish should have tried to save the kits, and shouldn’t have tried to attack Mapleshade at the Clan meeting (but I don’t think she deserve the DF, because the river was *flooding*). Ravenwing should have known that it was wrong to exile kits for their parent’s mistakes, counseling his leader accordingly.
Everybody made a ton of mistakes. But mostly, it’s Mapleshade. She was the source. She could have backed out at any time. She didn’t start having hallucinations until after her kits died. (And it’s up to debate if she had schizophrenia.) Her struggles with mental health don’t absolve her of guilt, it just makes her story more sad.
i agree! i think this way about mapleshade too – it’s very easy to get stuck in your own mind and label everyone who disagrees with you as “evil”, and generally the more stubborn you are the harder it is to get out of this hole once you dig yourself into it. mapleshade was very stubborn, and when i say stubborn i mean impossibly stubborn. you can tell that she knows the truth (the truth being that she is at fault for her situation) by the way immediately calls the first cats she thinks of the kittens’ “murderers” rather than thinking about anything first. it’s never explicitly said that it is her fault in the narrative, because she doesn’t even want to consider that to be true (pretty neat show don’t tell writing); in other words, she just can’t handle the fact that she killed her kittens, and so she blames everyone else as a coping mechanism. part of this was definitely delusion, but not all of it; the rest was plain stubborness. had she taken a moment to consider the truth, she may have been able to see past her delusions and realize that she needed help (help from myler my boi of course). however, she continued to hide behind her self-lies, which proved to be the downfall of her.
Exactly!
Although we need far more appreciation for Myler
best boi Myler <3
She was definitely not in her brightest moment making her kits cross the flooding river when there was a bridge near by. But, frecklewish, ravenwing and oak star all played a big part in mapleshades life…
One more point that I have not seen mentioned before: Ravenwing received an omen showing three water reeds being washed into the ThunderClan camp. Why would StarClan have sent such an omen? There are supposed to be no clan divisions in StarClan, so why would they want to send a warning about mixed-clan kits? Is someone in StarClan a “clanist” (equivalent to a nationalist or racist)?
Of course, StarClan is consistently inconsistent, that is, they do whatever the authors need them to do to drive the plot.
My guess is that it was a misinterpretation- after all, Ravenwing was young. He had little experience on his own as a medicine cat. The sign may have been eluding to Mapleshade, the root of the issue, rather than her children, who had done nothing wrong.
But then, it could just be a classis case of StarClan being used to further the plot, no matter how inconsistent it is with the rest of the series.
Reread TPB, and it bothers me how annoying the fight over the sunning rocks was. It should’ve been neutral territory, but noooo. Instead blood of many cats was shed for no reason. Don’t you think?
Agreed, but it should have been RiverClan’s, not neutral territory. Just because a river shifted doesn’t mean ThunderClan gets free land! It was originally RiverClan’s, and it should stay that way. Besides, it’s RIVERCLAN. They can swim through the river, it’s not like only ThunderClan could get to it now!
All the blood shed over Sunning Rocks was wasted, IMO. It was all about pride and prestige, not about any practical value the rocks had for either clan.
Yeah, agreed, but if they had to belong to a Clan, it should be RiverClan.
Now that I think about it, you’re right
Completely agree. I always thought that the Clans have way too much pride and want to be independent and strong. Why couldn’t ThunderClan and RiverClan have both hunted and sunned on those rocks? Then Redtail, Oakheart, Whitefang, Sunfish, and many others wouldn’t have lost their lives. Firestar was the only leader capable of making peace and working together with the Clans when their lives weren’t at risk. If he had been in the forest longer, he probably would’ve compromised with RiverClan over Sunningrocks, but we’ll never know.
I think sunning rocks should have been a place where both clans could hang out or maybe the med cats could have hung out there but I think some rocks aren’t worth the lives lost.
Yeah, true!! I definitely agree it comes down to pride- it’s such a bad trap both for us humans and for the warrior cats, and throughout the series we see them falling into it a lot.
YES. RiverClan and ThunderClan could have made a deal where ThunderClan has the rocks in newleaf and leafbare (even though the greedy gizzards have the entire forest to hunt in and RiverClan only has the river which sometimes freezes) and RiverClan can have it in greenleaf and leaf-fall. But no they just fought and fought and fought
I agree that it was unnecessary, but I think it went to show what the dynamic between the Clans was like. Neither Clan remembered why they even wanted to fight over the rocks- it was poor hunting for ThunderClan and offered no value except to laze in the sun for RiverClan. It was simply a matter of Clan pride, and showed how far each Clan would go for that pride. It displayed how the Clans weren’t really friends, but rivals.
So it may seem unnecessary, but I think it had a narrative purpose.
Also I think it’s a cool bit of lore to find out WHY they started fighting. It adds more, because it should have just been a petty dispute, over and done in a month. But NOOOOOOOoooooo.
If warrior cats were to get any meaningful lgbtq rep anytime soon, which cat do you think might receive it? Frostpaw gives me bisexual energy if I’m being honest.
Ravenpaw and barley <3
For some reason Needleclaw 😛
NIGHTHEART BEING TRANS