The Elders’ Den

Need a break from the hubbub of the rest of the blog? Or perhaps you just want a quiet page to discuss Warriors in depth. In any case, feel free to unwind in the Elders’ Den!

a long-furred grey cat with yellow eyes sits, staring at the camera

[a very fluffy grey cat with thick fur around its neck, long whiskers, and yellow eyes stares into the camera]

What exactly is this page, then? It’s a place to discuss, in detail, particular aspects of the Warriors series – to pick apart ideas and themes that perhaps either get overlooked elsewhere or require a nuanced perspective. And more broadly, it’s a quiet refuge away from the bustle of the rest of the blog!

If there is a more serious subject you’d like to discuss within the Warriors universe, remember to remain respectful of what people are saying and to handle the topics in question with the necessary care and respect. Does this mean this is a page solely for discussing controversial topics? Of course not, but rather if they appear, the mods ask that everyone involved remain calm and thoughtful – should a discussion verge too far into argument territory, we may step in and put an end to it.

an orange and white tabby cat lies in front of a teal background. it is licking its paw

[a ginger-and-white tabby cat squeezes its eyes closed as it licks its pawpad]

If you’re looking for a general place to talk about Warriors but you feel like your comment doesn’t quite fit the Elder’s Den, check out the Sunning Patch!

2,956 comments

  • I’d like to bring up the deputy situation after Whitestorm died. I believe Longtail would have been a much better choice than Greystripe. Longtail may have not been nice to Firestar when he joined the Clan, but can you really blame him? Firestar was a kittypet when he joined, and he was a Clan cat. But he proved his loyalty by telling him about Tigerstar’s dogs. He also mentored Swiftpaw, who would have been an amazing warrior if Bluestar had made him one. Greystripe, on the contrary, while he did mentor Brackenfur, also mated with a RiverClan she-cat, had kits with her, then left his Clan, then came back. Meanwhile, Longtail stayed in ThunderClan his entire life. But just because Whitestorm said so, Greystripe was deputy. Whitestorm may have been wise, but I believe Longtail would have been a wiser choice.

  • i saw this really interesting rant about ravenwing (from mapleshade’s vengeance) that deweyfisher posted on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/post/UgkxQ8Fd7yCzBtWV30BZTvxsQAAGYYRucNZ4

    what do you guys think? personally i strongly agree, and ravenwing should stop being so heavily antagonized, as his character is a lot deeper than just the medicine cat who told oakstar about the omen. i honestly see him as a pretty sympathetic character, not malicious in the least; he even apologizes to mapleshade and her kits before telling his clan the truth. obviously no cat in mapleshade’s vengeance deserved to be murdered, but ravenwing was the most innocent imo.

    • Goldenbrook 🖤 Member of the Tortured Poet's Society 🩶 Garlic Bread Supremacy 🤍 "I think the most magnificent things in life are worth living for" 💜 says:

      YES! As I see it, he was just Some Guy who was trying to do his job. He saw a sign, he interpreted it, and he FIRST went to Mapleshade to give her a chance. Then he did what was right according to the code and told his leader. He didn’t know what would happen, he was doing his job. The reason he gets antagonized is because Mapleshade sees him that way. But Mapleshade is an unreliable narrator and should not be trusted, and some people forget that

      • Mapleshade isn’t such a bad narrator, Ravenwing literally ratted her out and did nothing to stop the unfair exile of her kits, no wonder she sees him in a bad view- in her eyes he was the cause of her kits’ death and she is in a way right, if he hadn’t told, perhaps all of this wouldn’t have happened.

        • Mapleshade isn’t a bad narrator, but her views are unreliable as she is incredibly biased in her own favour. She sees him in a bad view- and that’s exactly what makes her narration unreliable because we as the reader are only presented this negative view of Ravenwing, when really he is also shown to be a young cat, thrown into the position of medicine cat who likely just confided in his leader about a concern. It’s hard to tell what he was really like because we do only see one side presented by Mapleshade

        • Unreliable does not equal bad. I love her perspective. I think it’s interesting. But she is so incredibly biased and deluded. She hallucinated her dead children telling her to murder others. She tried to kill Reedshine and her unborn kits. *She was trying to do to Reedshine’s kits what had been done to her own.* She wanted to punish those innocent children for what she thought was a crime from the parents.
          I don’t defend Appledusk and Reedshine. That’s not what I’m saying. But Mapleshade tried to kill children, on top of Ravenwing, Frecklewish, and Reedshine herself.
          Ravenwing saw a sign and interpreted it. He went to Mapleshade first, *rather than Oakstar.* He gave her a chance before doing what was right before the code.
          He didn’t know what would happen. In fact, it probably still would have happened anyway, or something like it. Secrets don’t stay buried forever. Sooner or later, it would come out, and Oakstar would choose nepotism, or Frecklewish would lash out, or Appledusk would reject her.
          Mapleshade always saw herself as the victim, when in reality, she could have stopped at any time.
          Anyway, this is a little rambly, so sorry, but in my defense I have a lot of opinions about Mapleshade and it’s 11 pm

    • I don’t think Ravenwing is exactly antagonistic, but that doesn’t justify whatever he did. Doing your job isn’t as simple as just reporting to your leader everything, in fact, it’s doing the right thing that will benefit everyone. In this case, keeping Mapleshade’s secret is much more important, as the Clan knowing the secret isn’t as vital as making sure kits are safe. He even knows that Mapleshade’s kits are going to suffer, but he tells anyway, proving that he is okay with that happening- yes, suffering is a broad term, but it’s not good in any way, so he should have not told at all. Yes, he apologized, sure, however, does apologizing make what he did better? Does it make it okay that he stood by while innocent kits were exiled? No.

      Another thing- while Mapleshade’s kits and her are exiled, Ravenwing stands by and doesn’t do anything to stop it. Even if he won’t argue for Mapleshade and her kits to stay in ThunderClan, he should at least suggest that there should be an escort for them. He also sees Mapleshade’s kit (Patchkit, I think?) struggling in the water, especially why he should ask for a few cats to accompany the cats.

      Something else that people say is that Ravenwing couldn’t possibly know how Oakstar would punish Mapleshade and her kits, and that a medicine cat isn’t expected to get to know their leader that well. But, if Ravenwing doesn’t know how Oakstar would react, he shouldn’t tell at all- yes, Oakstar may be more understanding, but given that the kits’ father is Appledusk, and that Mapleshade was lying, Ravenwing should expect that Oakstar wouldn’t treat them well.

      Anyways- I’d like to clarify, I don’t justify Mapleshade’s actions, and her crimes far outstrip what Ravenwing did, and that he didn’t deserve to die.

      • I agree.
        Telling Oakstar mght not have been the wisest move. He definitely should’ve thought through that decision more.
        But then, I think the truth would have come out sooner or later, regardless of what he did or didn’t do to protect the kits.
        I definitely think the kits should’ve been kept out of it. They hardly had any control over their parents decisions. He very clearly expressed a more negative view on them throughout Mapleshade’s Vengeance and that comes off as discriminatory to me. He acted as though, because they were half-Clan, they were somehow less innocent. That’s wrong however you want to view it.
        And I honestly haven’t thought about him that way before, but your right, he did nothing to stop them from being exiled. But then, so did nearly every single cat.
        Tbh, I don’t think Mapleshade deserved banishment. At that part of the story her only crime had been mating with a cat from another Clan and lying about it. That’s hardly something drastic enough to deserve exile. It was only after she was forced to abandon her Clan that everything went wrong. I think things would’ve turned out differently if she had received some kind of support. So both Oakstar and Ravenwing’s somewhat responsible there.
        But that by no means absolves Mapleshade of her crimes. She may have a point about how she was treated but that’s no justification for murder.

      • Goldenbrook 🖤 Member of the Tortured Poet's Society 🩶 Garlic Bread Supremacy 🤍 "I think the most magnificent things in life are worth living for" 💜 says:

        He saw a sign. He interpreted it. It is quite literally his duty as a medicine cat to report to his leader the signs he sees.
        Also- how could he have known what would happen? He’s not the one making decisions, the most he can do is advise his leader and hope he listens.
        Whether or not he tried to help is another question, one we simply don’t have answers to due to the perspective being from Mapleshade.
        Additonally, Ravenwing never saw Patchkit in the water. That would be Frecklewish. Ravenwing never left the clearing to watch Mapleshade leave. He stayed in the camp, and probably didn’t know the kits had drowned until later
        If you have evidence to the contrary, please please tell me it! But as far as I know, Frecklewish is the only one who watched.
        And on that note- how could they have helped. The river was flooding and was moving pretty fricken fast. They can’t swim. They would have just drowned themselves

        • Oh- for the part where Mapleshades kit was struggling in the water, it was the time before he confronted Mapleshade about the kits’ true father,

        • He may not have known what Oakstar would do, but he should be considering the worse consequences anyway, even if they’re unlikely

          • He was young and inexperienced. Would Oakstar have even listened if Ravenwing had tried to counsel him into giving a more merciful sentence?

            • He should still try! If kits’ lives are being risked, as a medicine cat, he should be trying to prevent that

              • How do we know he didn’t try? He might’ve, but we don’t know because the book is in Mapleshade’s perspective.
                For all we can speculate, the facts are that Ravenwing was young and ineperienced, and showed visible remorse for his actions when confronting Mapleshade. He gave her a chance

                • We don’t know if he did, yes, but judging from how he didn’t speak up against the exile of kits, Ravenwing likely didn’t

                • He may have been remorseful but it wasn’t enough for him to speak up against Mapleshade and the kits’ exile

          • Sure but it is their duty. They are the spiritual guide, it’s literally their job
            And since we don’t have a full, written version of the medicine cat code, we don’t know that it isn’t there

            • Mapleshade and her kits were no threat to ThunderClan, so telling wasn’t the most necessary thing to do.

              • According to the sign and how three cats ended up dead because of her… I think there was a threat.
                The whole secret was a powder keg about to explode, one way or another. If Ravenwing hadn’t told, something would happen and the secret would come out. Mapleshade was always a threat. She’s arrogant, narcistic, and has a main character complex. One way or another, she was going to harm ThunderClan

      • i do agree that he shouldn’t have stood by watching innocent kits get exiled, but i think it’s important to remember that 1) ravenwing was like a teenager and was probably not the best at acting under pressure or decision making, 2) mapleshade was acting very stand-offish and aggressive which might have scared him into not interacting with her further, and 3) it would probably be hard for him to side even slightly with mapleshade / her kits (by suggesting they be escorted out of the territory as you say) when the whole clan, including the leader, was actively angry at her. imo he was definitely right to tell oakstar about the kits because, as a medicine cat, he is his clan’s closest connection to starclan, and by siding with a cat who broke the warrior code, he is weakening his connection to starclan and thereby hurting his clan as well. keep in mind his only other choice would be to keep it a secret and therefore also lie to his whole clan by allowing them to believe the kits were pure thunderclan (in the same way mapleshade lied to everyone by making them believe the father was birchface). he truly was just doing his job!

    • It depends on how one views right and wrong.
      Let’s say right or wrong are dictated soley by actions. If they hurt someone, they are wrong. If they benefit others, they are right. By that logic, nearly all characters in Mapleshade’s Vengeance deserved punishment.
      If one interprets it as a war between love and fear, that’s different. Every cat in Mapleshade’s Vengeance underwent a choice between love and fear, and gave into fear. That’s okay. What matters is rather or not one learns from the experience and makes a consistant effort to let love win afterwards.
      Some cats did, some cats didn’t.
      Another definition says that to do evil or wrong is to present yourself as good and do harm.
      That does describe Mapleshade.
      All of her actions glorified herself in someway. If you recall, she was constantly boasting about how these were HER kits and how the idea of them NOT receiving StarClan’s blessing was preposterous. That gave me the impression that she saw them as a way to become honored in the eyes of her Clan. I think she snapped, not just because of grieve/guilt, but because she lost that path towards respect.
      Additionally, Mapleshade did show herself up as someone to be trusted. She pretended her kits were Birchface’s. And it was mostly for her own good, not for the good of others.
      But we don’t actually know what Ravenwing’s motives were.
      I personally would say that he was motivated by fear. During their interactions, Mapleshade describes him as acting suspicious. However, that could be her misinterpreting dread.
      I think that he suspected Appledusk was the father of her kits from the start and worried they’d grow up to be like him.
      Every cat grows up believing their own Clan is the best and learn to be afraid of other Clans [hatred always stems from fear].
      Ravenwing was merely a victim of that.
      The minset was probably worsened by the fact that, at the time, ThunderClan especially hated RiverClan due to the Appledusk incident.
      I believe he also wanted to prove that he was a competent Medicine Cat, one his Clan could respect.
      Ultimately, he doesn’t deserve the hate he gets. When you think about it, all he did was tell the truth. That only inconvenienced Mapleshade because she wanted to be the one who controlled what her Clan knew about her kits parentage. Sooner or later, the identity of their father was going to come out. The truth always finds you, rather you run from it or not. Mapleshade was naive to fight that and place the blame on Ravenwing.

    • Um, excuse me? How is Ravenwing more innocent than Frecklewish(who was super annoying, but was more innocent than Ravenwing)
      Here’s my rant(plz don’t be offended):
      Ravenwing was just being a random cat in camp, never talking to Mapleshade or her kits, while Frecklewish thought they were her cousins! Then, Ravendude suddenly decides that he’s(very random) gonna snitch Mapleshade while she never did something to bother him. I mean, why start meddling into other cats business just because you’re ‘the amazing and selfless medicine cat’! While Frecklewish has a good reason to be offended, because Mapleshade lied about her dead brother, who she missed very much. Also, Frecklewish thought the kittens were going to be saved by RiverClan(which they weren’t, thanks to Applepoop) and Mapleshade suddenly says that she killed the kits she thought were her cousins! I would get Frecklewish out of the Dark Forest as soon as possible, and Ravenwing and Appledusk can take her place!
      So, that was my very long rant about why Frecklewish is better than Ravenwing. He just meddles with others business.

      • ravenwing was actually the one to deliever mapleshade’s kits (that was also one of the first litters he had delivered), and felt visibly sorry for them when he found out the truth about their parentage. he told oakstar about mapleshade not because he likes to meddle in others’ businesses, but because she broke the warrior code and starclan sent a sign that the kits don’t belong: things that he reasonably believed his leader should know about. the fact that mapleshade broke the warrior code does actually kind of make it his business, since he is his clan’s connection to starclan as the sole medicine cat, and he needs to listen to starclan’s signs and uphold the warrior code to do well at his job. frecklewish was also innocent, and in my opinion undeserving of the dark forest, but there’s no denying ravenwing’s innocence, especially considering he was basically a teenager at death.

      • Goldenbrook 🖤 Member of the Tortured Poet's Society 🩶 Garlic Bread Supremacy 🤍 "I think the most magnificent things in life are worth living for" 💜 says:

        It wasn’t random. He saw a sign from StarClan, are we just all going to ignore how he was Doing His Job?
        While I agree that Frecklewish does not deserve the Dark Forest (though I don’t see how that’s relevant here) neither does Ravenwing. Was he the one to banish Mapleshade? No. Did he know what would happen? No, how would he? Did he even know the kits were drowning? No, he wasn’t there. Did he interpret the sign, as according to the medicine cat code? Yes. Did he go to Mapleshade first, before telling Oakstar, in order to give her a chance? Yes. Was he young and inexperienced, and probably just trying to interpret the signs and do his job? Yes.

    • I think he’s just a medicine cat trying to do his job. I don’t see him as particularly good or bad, just trying to do his job :// He’s a little boring, but definitely not evil.

    • I don’t really think Ravenwing should be antagonized for telling Oakstar about the omen. It was from StarClan, and as a medicine cat, he has a lot of trust and faith in them and would have thought he was morally obligated to tell Oakstar, not just because it was his job but also because he thought it was what StarClan wanted and must be the right thing to do. He clearly felt bad about telling Oakstar and getting Mapleshade exiled, but there wasn’t much he could do about the situation, especially since Birchface, the cat Mapleshade had misled her clan into thinking was her kits’ father, was the leader’s dead son and their real father was the cat who killed Birchface. Ravenwing might have fought for Mapleshade and her kits privately to Oakstar, there’s no way to know, but either way it probably wouldn’t have made a difference; ThunderClan would have been too angry and probably never have accepted Mapleshade and her kits no matter what Ravenwing said. And he still might have thought that StarClan supported Mapleshade’s exile, and thought that something worse might happen if they stayed, especially with the Clan so angry at Mapleshade and the kits. He had no way of knowing that Mapleshade would try to take her kits across the dangerous, overflowing river after being exiled. The things that happened due to his actions were horrible, but I don’t think there’s any way he could have predicted all of those things and known not to say anything, especially since he thought telling Oakstar and letting him decide what to do was what StarClan wanted him to do.

  • It still bothers me how many mates Clearsky has. Do you all ship ClearxStorm ClearxStar or ClearxBright. I personaly ship ClearxBright and ClearxStar because they seem to rlly love each other. What are your opinions?

    • Skystar was toxic and controlling of Storm, who was a free spirit. That ship never would’ve worked long-term.

      Skystar and Bright Stream were pretty good for each other, with the contrasting personalities of Skystar, who was violent, controlling, and foolish, and Bright Stream, who was intelligent, sweet, and peaceful. But we didn’t see as much of it as the other two.

      Skystar and Star Flower both had a less moral personality than most other cats, but Skystar used his claws and Star Flower used her words. They were an interesting pair until Star Flower had kits and alongside it a rapid loss of personality.

    • His amount of mates doesn’t concern me much, though here are my opinions on them:

      Bright Stream: Clear Sky was actually a decent mate to her, and she was a great cat. These two clearly love each other a lot, and Bright Stream’s affection for him made her leave her mountain home to go with him to follow the Sun Trail. They had personalities that brought out the best in each other, like Mallowpaw said- Clear Sky could be arrogant and violent, but Bright Stream’s gentle, sweet personality softened his. (I ship them :3)

      Storm: Clear Sky was extremely controlling of her, and very protective, even babying her, and clearly, Storm doesn’t need that. She is that kind of cat who doesn’t need anyone protecting her- someone who won’t hide behind big, strong cats like some pretty kittypet. She prefers freedom, and Clear Sky didn’t give her that.

      Star Flower: (I like this, too!!) Like Thunderstar mentioned, Star Flower was the perfect cat for Clear Sky- unafraid to stand up to any cat, clever, and no-nonsense, and she’s smart and persuasive, charismatic too. Star Flower is fiercely loyal and loving, and her common sense is good for Clear Sky, who can be foolish at times.

    • The fact that Skystar has had three mates doesn’t bother me. Irl, it’s not entirely unheard of for someone to marry multiple people throughout their lifetime.
      What’s weird is that each mate was related to Graywing in some way. It’s implied that Greywing had a crush on Storm and Bright Stream, yet Skystar ends up with them both. And Star-Flower was his sons ex, his son mind you, that Greywing raised. Are you seeing the pattern here?
      Now for my opinions on each of the ships.
      Skystar x Bright Stream
      This appears to be the healthiest of the trio. They both seem to make each other happy. I do have a few issues though.
      Namely, that Bright Stream is a little cliche. She has that generic, gentle, graceful personality, and eventually agrees to do what Skystar wants. Now, those qualities in and of themselves aren’t a problem.
      But when you put them together it does captures how woman are stereotypically expected to behave.
      It doesn’t help that she’s basically used as trauma fodder for Skystar and set up his motivations for being evil later on.
      But honestly, that’s more a problem with how her character was written then the actual ship.
      Skystar x Storm
      Honestly, this was just a mistake.
      Skystar most likely was not completely over Bright Stream’s death, so the instant he saw Storm, I think he saw something in her that reminded him of Bright Stream, so he decided to make her a Bright Stream replacement.
      He failed to see Storm as her own cat.
      I do respect this ship for one reason-Storm does seem to stand up to Skystar and make her own choices. That’s the kind of thing he needs to learn. Cats don’t fix into boxes. He just wasn’t ready to learn that lesson yet.
      Star-flower x Skystar
      Listen, I’m a huge Star-Flower fan. I adore the concept of two complicated, less then moral cats coming together.
      But I don’t think it’s executed very well here.
      First, I honestly wonder why Star-flower chose him. Idk, something about her pretending to love Thunder then the second One-Eye dies, switching to Skystar just feels…conniving. I feel like she was indeed looking for a One-Eye replacement, and used Skystar, because well…yeah, he is a little like One-eye isn’t he? And I can’t help but wonder of it was also simultaneous final jab at Thunder.
      Anyway, I do think that somewhere along the line of the plot, she actually did develop feelings for him, otherwise she probably wouldn’t have had his kits. Still. It just feels so messed up that Thunder’s step-mom is his ex.
      The main issue I have with the ship is how Star-Flower treats his flaws. I think there was this scene where Star-Flower had come to support him after a rough conversation with his mother and…
      I don’t like how she babies him.
      I don’t mind him being encouraged, but I think, Star-flower should’ve maybe gently helped him through his flaws, or develop a plan to improve on them or smn, rather than instantly pitying him.
      All that said, I don’t really ship any Skystar ships.
      Skystar needs to work through his issues first before he’s ready to take on a mate.
      I will concede that Skystar x Bright Stream seems okay, but we aren’t shown enough about their dynamic. It does seem though, that they were in the beginning, honey-moon phase of their relationship. Something about how Skystar reacts to her death [aka turning into a controlling, genocidal maniac] makes me wonder if things would’ve gotten worse between them. Perhaps Bright Stream was spared some worse fate…

    • Not really. I think three significant others is a perfectly normal amount to have over a lifetime, especially considering the former two died. I don’t really ship any of his pairings, but i think Clear x Star, minus the entire thunder situation, was the best relationship for him. If Bright Stream had lived, maybe she could’ve been the best for him, but if he still went in the direction he did with her alive I doubt she’d stick around. My least favourite is definitely Clear x Storm, because of the way he treater her.

    • Clear x Bright is the only cute one! Star Flower is too young for him and Storm should be with Gray Wing!

    • The loss of personality she-cats experience after having cats is soo annoying and it’s killing me with Ivypool. ^^

      My opinion on Skystar’s mates:

      Bright Stream: They were really cute together and since this is before Skystar sort of lost his mind, he’s less controlling. She was a great cat and I love them together.

      Storm: Skystar didn’t treat her right, especially toward the end of their relationship. But he did love her, probably more than Bright Stream since Storm’s spirit form appears to Skystar more (which I don’t like to think about since I prefer Bright Stream).

      Star Flower: These two are perfect for each other! Both are slightly immoral and low-key disgusting if you sit with everything they’ve done but they bring out the best in each other, I guess.

    • I haven’t gotten to the part about Star Flower, but I liked both ClearxStorm and ClearxBright! Here are my thoughts on them.

      ClearxBright seemed like a good ship. If Bright Stream had lived she probably would have had kits with Clear Sky and been his mate for life. I ship it.

      ClearxStorm is also an interesting ship. I always thought Storm would be shipped with Grey Wing, but apparently not. I was happy when I found out about the ship because I loved Clear Sky and Storm, and it’s always good to see two of your favorite characters shipped. It wasn’t as stable as ClearxBright, but still interesting. I ship it.

      I am not very bothered by Clear Sky having so many mates. He had as many mates as Crowfeather, and the latter doesn’t get hate for it. (Also, hopefully my school library buys more DotC books, because now I really want to read about Star Flower and ClearxStar.)

  • 🌻Blossompaw/wing🌻🍄Blog sis to the amazing Rosepaw/dawn!🍄🌿Looking for a mentor!🌿 🍓STARDEW VALLEY PLAYER🍓 says:

    Hey!
    I’d like to talk about how Firestar changed in the books. In TPB Firestar was like any other main character. When he was chosen to be deputy he was really surprised and, of course, nervous. When he became leader he chose Whitestorm as deputy because he had helped him when Firestar was deputy. But in TNP he really changed. I became a little angry at him because I didn’t like *this* Firestar. (I’m only on the second book in TNP, just so y’all know) And when Cinderpelt got that omen he became really angry and mean to Squirrelpaw and Thornclaw. (Correct me if I got any names wrong TvT) Is it just me that think he changed? Idk, what do you think?

  • I’d like to discuss background characters in Warriors. I’ve noticed that the authors use the same ones over and over again (for example, Thornclaw, Brackenfur and Dustpelt) but if half of Thornclaw’s dialogue was given to his daughter, Eaglewing, then she’d be much more talkative. I don’t think the Erins do a very good job of using all the characters in the books, which is something I try hard to do in my own fan fiction.

  • I would like to bring up the leader problem, that is, when a character has a complete shift in personality a book after they become leader. For example Onestar, as Onewhisker he was a good friend of Fireheart/star and respectful of Thunderclan, but after he became leader, it’s like his previous personality was completely forgotten and he becomes this really stubborn cat that despises Thunderclan, which Tallstar didn’t want AT ALL (this is based on what I remember, haven’t read TNP in a while, apologies if this info is wrong :p).

    There are other offenders of this, like Squirrelstar(imo), Bramblestar, Tigerstar 2, Skystar(?), and some other leaders. I feel like the authors do this just for the sake of plot, but what do you think? Asking this because I plan to write an article on this problem.

    • Yes! I wrote a whole horrible article about this a few months ago but it didn’t meet the word count.

      Onestar is by far the worst offender of this. He was, in my opinion, far worse than Mudclaw would’ve been. It mimics Bluestar and Thistleclaw in my opinion.

      Bluestar and Onestar were formerly mature and peaceful cats who wanted the best for their Clan. They had to make a sacrifice (Mosskit & Onestar’s friendship with Firestar) to become a proper leader, but saved their Clan from the potential threat of a more aggressive and violent leader. They then had a decreasing mental state after someone close to them did something terrible, getting cats killed and doing several irrational things due to their decreasing mental state. In the end, they both drowned and redeemed themselves with their kits around them. They later got a super edition describing their childhood and a forbidden mate they had.

      But overall, Bluestar was the better leader for ThunderClan. Onestar was questionable. Onestar got Crowfrost, Wasptail, and Kinkfur killed in his failure as leader. And Mudclaw clearly cared about his Clan, and if he realized who Hawkfrost really was, I think that he could’ve been a better leader than Onestar, who even before aVoS, was unfriendly and aggressive, serving as an antagonist. As for the other cats you mentioned…

      I consider there to be four Squirrelflights. The first, TNP-aVoS Squirrelflight, was a fierce but loving warrior with the same sense of doing the right thing that Firestar had. She wasn’t submissive or unfriendly, but she was a bit rash. The second Squirrelflight, TBC Squirrelflight, was a mature, seasoned warrior with a remaining sense of doing the right thing and a rebel attitude. The third Squirrelflight, early ASC Squirrelflight, was an annoying jerk who went behind other cats’ backs for no good reason. The fourth Squirrelflight, Thunder Squirrelstar, is a wonderful mix of the first and second Squirrelflight. I like the new Squirrelflight, and she is probably my favorite Squirrelflight. I wouldn’t consider her to be out of character unless you count in the third Squirrelflight, which no one likes.

      Bramblestar I mostly agree with. In his super edition he just kinda started trying to be Firestar. He wasn’t like this previously.

      I think Tigerheart and Skystar always stayed the same.

      • I haven’t gotten to Thunder yet, but the “four Squirrelflights” makes a lot of sense to me. I’m neutral on the first Squirrelflight, like the second Squirrelflight, and HATE the third. But overall, I’m on Bramblestar’s side in his arguments with Squirrelflight.

      • “The third Squirrelflight, early ASC Squirrelflight, was an annoying jerk who went behind other cats’ backs for no good reason.”

        wait, what? when was this? what did she do?

        • Squirrelflight seemed constantly irritable and grumpy, and seemed completely unsympathetic of Nightheart; acting in a way I wouldn’t expect former Squirrelflight to act. She also kept a controversy over prey with WindClan to herself instead of reporting it to Bramblestar, something she as a deputy should’ve done. By ‘went behind other cats’ backs’ I mean Bramblestar. Sure, Bramblestar was quite mentally ill at this point, but she at least should’ve told him.

          • But Brambleclaw was avoiding conflict at that time, and wouldn’t have confronted WindClan about the issue though, so that’s why she went behind his back. I agree with you that she was being difficult on Nightheart for pretty much no reason though. She made him be the only cat doing all the apprentice work right after his (thrice delayed) warrior ceremony. Give him a break fr!

  • Probably my first real comment on here 😛 okay here we go *deep breath* (I know this is a terrible day to make a serious comment but it’s not a joke guys)

    TBC is my favourite arc, so let’s talk about it 😛

    What are y’all’s thoughts on Bristlefrost’s loyalty to “Bramblestar” in the The Silent Thaw?
    I feel like the Erins could’ve taken it much farther than they did, and made her a side villain. This would’ve been really interesting to read imo, but then the BristleRoot ship likely wouldn’t have sailed as far as it did (which is sad for me because I like BristleRoot).
    However, there could’ve been a chance of Bristlefrost taking Berrynose’s place, and eventually being exiled or smth?

    Idrk, that’s why I want your thoughts on this 😛

    • 🔥💥 Flamepaw/BREEZE✨⚡ Call me Flam or Flamilton!☝😈 "I'm gonna make you wish that I'd stayed gone!"🌧⭐ Outstanding OspreyBREEZE's Appendix 🧡👻 Any pronouns except it/its 🌈🌙 "Play your cards, be who you are!" 👑🌇 says:

      I think the idea of Bristlefrost as more of an anti-hero or just a character with a morally gray compass would be very interesting! However at the same time, I feel like it would mess with the erest of her character development from earlier in the series. But I do think the idea is very interesting!!

      • As a huge fan of Bristlefrost and morally grey characters, a morally grey Bristlefrost would have been great. Too bad they didn’t do that.

    • Goobldoobnbrooboobzoob 🤠 Member of the Tortured Penguin's Department 💜 Invading Denmark 👀 "You want to know my secret? I have a lot of money" says:

      uugh why didn’t you write those books? 😛
      I didn’t really like TBC because I found it… outlandish. It turns out I liked the politics of warriors, rather than ghosts and demonic possession. But to have one of the pov characters start as someone with a bright future and then have a downfall into villainy? Amazing. Gorgeous.
      I would have loved that

      • I AGREE COMPLETELY!! I didn’t like TBC either because of what you said (and also love ASC because it focuses on the “politics” more), but an evil Bristlefrost would have made it SO MUCH BETTER.

    • I found her loyalty to Brambleposter realistic. It’s a common tactic tyrants use to manipulate their subjects [for lack of a better term], convince them that doing xyz is for the greater good of their Clan/country etc etc, and if you revolt against their will you aren’t loyal.
      It could have been explored more but overall it was okay.
      Now regarding Bristle being a villain-that Depends on what you mean ha h ha. If you mean she starts taking on Brambleposter’s characteristics and turns into a Jr version of him, then uhhhhh no. That’s a little too far 😛
      But if you mean, out of Clan loyalty, she makes more bad decisions that lead to deaths then yes, I’d love to see that aspect of her being Brambleposter’s favored one fleshed out more.
      However there needs to be a balance.
      Bristle is like her mother- she can be a little naive and take her emotions/and or loyalty to the Clan too…extreme lengths. But it isn’t in her nature to be evil and scheming. Having her fall to a…say Tigerstar or Mapleshade level would feel out of character for her.

  • I have a rant! 😛

    Okay so we all know Clear Sky/Skystar, right? I am furious with the way the Erins handled his character.

    Okay. So before the journey to the forest territory the Clans would come to inhabit before leaving, Skystar was an okay dude. He had a strong desire to explore the world beyond and was a bit controlling but whatever.

    After all the losses experienced on the journey, the mountain cats split – forest and moor.
    Skystar took his group of cats to the forest. And then all hell broke loose.
    Skystar became obsessed with survival, survival, survival – so much so that he kicked out his own injured brother and left another cat (Frost, I believe?) for dead.

    Skystar was infuriating. He made so many horrible choices and killed a lot of innocents, like Rainswept Flower. He manipulated and murdered and was just overall awful.

    But after he killed Rainswept Flower, he became a better person. It was a gradual change, but he realised the fault in his behaviour and worked to fix it. By the end of the arc, we could say Skystar had the best character development!

    Then Moth Flight’s Vision hit us. [Spoilers for Moth Flight’s Vision below]
    .

    .

    .

    In this book, Skystar refuses to let Moth Flight get the sap to save Slate – his dead brother’s mate. Even after finding out what Moth Flight was doing, he argued and argued and then sent a cat up after Moth Flight and Micah to stop them.
    And then Micah fell and died.
    Skystar caused Micah to die, then, at the Gathering, when confronted with his actions, Skystar snarled out, “I am never wrong!”
    Yes.
    You heard me.

    Skystar, who has done unspeakable things in his lifetime, just uttered those 4 words.

    All his carefully crafted development – gone. we end up seeing he’s the same cat he’s always been.

    And this makes me so, so angry 😛 a whole arc of development down the drain just like that??? ughhhh!!

  • What are your opinions on the Breezepelt situation? This cat was obviously extremely evil, but then the authors forgot and made it seem like it was all his dads fault, and he had nothing to blame? He literally trained in the Dark Forest and fought with the Dark Forest even after knowing what their goal was. He stood over Hollyleaf’s body, glad that she was dead, and said that Lionblaze was next. He attacked Poppyfrost, while she was pregnant, and Jayfeather, famously a blind medicine cat, on their way to the Moonpool, with the help of dead Brokenstar. He is never punished, or ever even forced to acknowledge his many severe crimes. In Dovewing’s Silence, him getting away with this is positioned as dangerous. Then, when the new team picks up the story, he gets married to Heathertail, and is portrayed as some kind of “misunderstood” character. This character is not misunderstood. He is a cold-blooded murderer. He even acts FRIENDLY to Nightheart and mentions that he has difficulties with his parents regularly, which is acceptable as long as you ignore the fact that he is a CRIMINAL who plotted to KILL.

    • 🌇ⒹⒶⓌⓃⓅⒶⓌ/ⓈⓅⒶⓇⓀ🌇||🐉Dawnpaw officially in her Dragon puppeteer phase🌿 ||✨ Spark of Blazing Dawn🌾||⚡️Dawnsie, Dawnie, Sparkie💫||🐾MASSIVE KPOP STAN🪷 says:

      i uh, i luv Breezy boi 😔 /lh

    • Flowerpaw/seed🌺she/her 🌟 Seedo or Seven <33 🩷 "If you don't feel any fear, you will never never be able to feel brave. Courage is nothing without the knowledge of what you face." - Swiftbreeze says:

      I suggest that you (re)read Crowfeather’s Trial. Personally, I don’t think Breezepelt was ever truly evil. His choices were made by him, partially influenced by both of his parents, but practically 90% were his own. At the same time, he was a cat who seemed lonely in his own Clan, with one parent who was never there for him and another that was overprotective. He grew up confused and angry, wondering the truth about his father’s absence and bitter because of Nightcloud. It made him open to manipulation from the Dark Forest. He had no cat to help him through that time, no supporting friends/family that he could lean on and confide in. His mistakes in the past are definitely bad, and his actions could have caused many deaths, but I think he’s making up for it during Crowfeather’s Trial, by saving not only a Clanmate, Heathertail, but also Lionblaze, whom he’d tried to kill just a few moons ago. Despite being severely injured, etc. Overall, I think that Breezepelt is a cat who had a terrible past, made bad choices, but has definitely redeemed himself, and is worthy of being considered a good cat. He even is shown to be extremely courageous and loyal in Crowfeather’s Trial, and is prepared to risk his life for cats he cares about. He displays a lot of perseverance in the book, determined to prove himself as a cat loyal to WindClan. I think that his story shows how truly important friendship is, and how vital it is to have friends that are always there for you

      • That’s fair, but he sided with the Dark Forest during the Great Battle (I think he was the only one to do this, but I’m not sure), so he was hateful enough to want to kill everyone he ever knew. The other cats who trained in the Dark Forest did it believing that it would help them grow stronger and left when they found out the truth, the other cats were manipulated. On the other hand, Breezepelt did it with the full intention to destroy the clans. His new behavior feels kind of like a retcon? I don’t think that its wrong to like Breezepelt or anything I’m just sharing some thoughts.

        • Flowerpaw/seed🌺she/her 🌟 Seedo or Seven <33 🩷 "If you don't feel any fear, you will never never be able to feel brave. Courage is nothing without the knowledge of what you face." - Swiftbreeze says:

          That’s a good point :> Breezepelt did want to kill everyone he knew, and he was hateful, vindictive, and brutal. But through the series, we don’t see much of Breezepelt’s personality development, and there are only bits of where he speaks/acts. It’s been many arcs (years, I guess) since he’s had a major speaking part, and during that time, I think he went through self-reflection and became a better cat for good. Additionally, I’m assuming that Heathertail, Crowfeather, etc. are good influences on him:

          – Heathertail: She’s kind, compassionate, and feisty, definitely, and her more easygoing, spirited personality, and the love and support she gives him, may make him change <3

          – Crowfeather: We all know Breezepelt was very neglected before Crowfeather's Trial. Partly why Breezepelt was always arrogant, angry, and confused. But later, Crowfeather truly starts to show his son more love and care. Breezepelt's resentment towards his father likely fades away, again contributing to his change.

          – Kits: Heathertail and Breezepelt had four kits by now- Smokehaze, Brindlewing, Appleshine, Woodsong. The experience would make him more gentle and understanding, likely, if he will be the father Crowfeather wasn't.

          Anyways, keep in mind that these are just assumptions. These may or may not be the factors for Breezepelt's change, but I feel like his behaviour is not much of a retcon since there's been arcs where we don't see much of him.

          • (Redwillow is ShadowClan. The DF cats from WindClan have been retconned several times. In OotS, Furzepelt, Sunstrike, Boulderpaw, and Breezepelt were all on the list, and in Crowfeather’s Trial Crouchfoot and Harespring were added to the list, as well as a couple others that I can’t think off off the top of my head. The idea that Breezepelt was the only one comes from Dovewing’s Silence, which says that. It’s totally wrong though)

            • All of those cats (especially Harespring, who fought so good that he became deputy), fought for the clans in the Great Battle. They TRAINED in the dark forest because they were manipulated, a lot of cats were, but when they found out about it they fought for the clans. They only trained because they were insecure about their ability to protect their clans, not because they wanted to destroy their clans. Breezepelt and Redwillow (maybe a few others) were the only cats who fought AGAINST the clans in the Great Battle, they fought on the side of the Dark Forest, even knowing that they were fighting against the clans.

          • Yes, Redwillow was the other one! I’m pretty sure there was no one else who fought with the Dark Forest though.

      • Goldenbrook 🖤 Member of the Tortured Poet's Department 🩶 Garlic Bread Supremacy 🤍 "I think the most magnificent things in life are worth living for" 💜 says:

        Cool motive! Still (attempted) murder. I think what Crowfeather said in The Last Hope sums it up pretty well. “He’s an adult. He’s been making his own choices for a while now.” Nobody was forcing him to try to murder Poppyfrost, her unborn kits, and Lionblaze

        • True, though his childhood also shaped a tiny percentage of his decisions plus the Dark Forest. Yep, most of them were Breezepelt’s own decisions though. His attempted murder is in no way justifiable and thinking back, I feel like he perhaps should have been punished. I agree, he definitely chose to do what he did, and should be held accountable for that. I really liked his character during + after his redemption though <3 I go back and forth often 😛

        • Don’t forget his attempts at killing Jayfeather (when he was with Poppyfrost) and literally everyone in all the clans when he fights on the side of the Dark Forest! (All of this was premeditated by the way.)

          • Yeah, that’s true. Breezepelt made some really bad decisions definitely, and it’s not okay to do what he did no matter how much neglect he faced when he was younger. I feel like he owes apologies to his former victims tbh,, however, he’s done good in his life, not just all bad, and I think his actions in Crowfeather’s Trial proves that he is a better cat now 😀

    • Fallowpaw|🔥Fire alone can save our Clan-Spottedleaf|💧More water will flow before we join StarClan-Ravenpaw|🌫Don't you want to breathe the fresh air?-Graystripe|🌍Like I said, Earth is a big name for a kit your size-Root says:

      It IS all Crowfeather’s fault! Join the Crowfeather hate club if you agree.

      • It isn’t all Crowfeather’s fault. Sure, Crowfeather’s neglect slightly influenced Breezepelt to be angry and bitter, but in the end, it only accounts for a small percentage of Breezepelt’s choices. Breezepelt chose to do what he did and Crowfeather not being there for him was only a little part why Breezepelt made those decisions.

    • Also Breezepelt 100% belongs in the Dark Forest. If cats like Snowtuft (who redeemed himself and doesn’t even knows what he did) and Juniperclaw (whose crimes are mild compared to Breezepelt, he poisoned the fresh-kill pile once, got punished, sacrificed himself, redeemed himself for it many times but still ends up in the Dark Forest) are in the Dark Forest, than that means that Breezepelt, whose crimes are far more severe and did far less to redeem himself, should be in the Dark Forest as well! I’m calling it now that they won’t do that though, because Breezepelt is a fan favorite and the authors have forgotten what he did.

      • We don’t know what crimes Snowtuft committed when he was alive. He also fought for the Dark Forest in fact, and helped nearly kill Ivypool and probably many others, but redeemed himself by attacking Ashfur.

        • Yeah, the Snowtuft point wasn’t clear, but Juniperclaw though. His crimes were far less severe than Breezepelt’s and he put much more effort into redeeming himself than Breezepelt, but in the end he was delegated to the Dark Forest for eternity. Juniperclaw even understood his mistakes and sacrificed himself to save Shadowsight even though he died, then he helped save the clans from Ashfur and guarded the tunnel between the Dark Forest and Starclan. Breezepelt tried to kill several cats, and got away with it pretty much free. He also put far less effort into redemption, and committed far more heinous crimes. If Juniperclaw is a Dark Forest cat, so is Breezepelt.

          • How do you know he put much more effort? Breezepelt saved many cats, including Lionblaze, and just because he didn’t sacrifice himself to save others doesn’t mean he put less effort. In Breezepelt’s case, he didn’t have to necessarily sacrifice himself during his redemption. Anyways, about Juniperclaw: I definitely agree that Juniperclaw deserves StarClan. But at that time StarClan was pretty unfair, putting Juniperclaw into the Dark Forest for a crime he genuinely regretted. Breezepelt… I think he definitely had some remorse for his actions. He did a lot to make up for his wrongs. What’s done is done, but he can still redeem himself, and he did

            • I’m not saying Breezepelt didn’t put any effort, he did, what I am saying is that Juniperclaw 100% put a lot more effort than Breezepelt did and is still a Dark Forest cat.
              1. Sacrifice for Shadowsight
              2. Helped save everyone vs. Ashfur
              3. Guarded Dark Forest tunnel.
              That is a LOT for a Warriors redemption arc. That is probably the most any cat has done in Warriors to redeem themselves. He struggled across years in the Dark Forest, trying to redeem himself. Especially for a cat like him whose crime was mild even compared to Mudclaw (who got in Starclan). Breezepelt did far worse things than Juniperclaw, and had much less of a redemption arc. Breezepelt’s remorse also appeared of out nowhere during Crowfeather’s Trial, in OoTS he didn’t regret anything, and in CT they act like he always had remorse and condense his entire redemption into a book about someone else. If Juniperclaw is in the Dark Forest forever after his redemption, so is Breezepelt.

              • Breezepelt:

                – Saves Heathertail

                – Saves Lionblaze

                – Helps save Nightcloud

                – Volunteers to help defeat Ashfur when Lightleap couldn’t go

                And a few more I forgot about 😛

                • Ik I’m not saying he didn’t do anything, what I am saying is Juniperclaw did far less worse things, and far more good things. Juniperclaw was also punished much more severely than Breezepelt (he literally died + was tortured in the dark forest for a minor crime). So if Juniperclaw can’t go to Starclan, why should Breezepelt (with several extremely major crimes that he wasn’t punished for) be able to? Also I’m pretty sure that is all he did, there isn’t a few more.

                  • That’s true! But many cats who’ve done probably worse than Breezepelt went to StarClan, though (eg. Skystar, Goosefeather) Juniperclaw was a victim of StarClan’s unfair treatment. Overall, Breezepelt definitely deserves StarClan 🙂

                    • Yeah Skystar was worse than Breezepelt, but what did Goosefeather do? I didn’t read his book.

          • I can’t reply on your other comment so here’s a list of Goosefeather’s bad actions:

            – Attacks two defenseless kits, causing Crookedstar’s broken jaw

            – Causes ThunderClan to attack WindClan, and dishonorably destroy herbs. This indirectly gets his own sister Moonflower killed, and injuries from both Clans.

            – Refuses to help a queen in need, even to the point where her kits are a half-moon early.

            – Pressures Bluefur to give up her kits, despite how it’s leaf-bare, and the kits are young. Simply because he wants her to be deputy instead of Thistleclaw, when he could just report Thistleclaw for training in the DF at night.

            – Abandons his duties, when being a medicine cat is one of the most important roles that keep the Clan alive.

      • I didn’t read his books, so I don’t know much about him, but this is from the info that I know.

        “– Abandons his duties, when being a medicine cat is one of the most important roles that keep the Clan alive.”

        Alright but this doesn’t seem like he is at fault. I also believe he was going insane so he needed to take action to preserve his mental health.

        “Pressures Bluefur to give up her kits, despite how it’s leaf-bare, and the kits are young. Simply because he wants her to be deputy instead of Thistleclaw, when he could just report Thistleclaw for training in the DF at night.”

        I also don’t see how this is evil, he just encouraged Bluefur to save the clan and I’m pretty sure at this point nobody believed anything he had to say so he couldn’t have exposed Thistleclaw. The kits are also safe in RiverClan.

        “Attacks two defenseless kits, causing Crookedstar’s broken jaw”

        Stormkit slipped, it was an accident. Goosefeather chased them off, but he didn’t intend to hurt them.

        “Causes ThunderClan to attack WindClan, and dishonorably destroy herbs. This indirectly gets his own sister Moonflower killed, and injuries from both Clans.”

        He keeps getting omens that drive him insane, he thought that WindClan was going to destroy ThunderClan. He obviously didn’t intend for his sister to die.

        All in all, I don’t see how Goosefeather did evil things? His story is more of a tragedy. I don’t even see how he can be close to the morality of Breezepelt?

        • – However, if he wants to preserve his mental health, he should just become an elder, or something like that. But while Goosefeather is a medicine cat, he shouldn’t be lazing off when he should be doing his duties.

          – Attacking Stormkit and Oakkit: “The tom’s gaze narrowed. “How dare you?” His ears flattened. […] “He’s going to kill us!” Oakkit croaked. “Run!” Stormkit turned and scrambled through the mallow. He skidded to a halt on the first stone, then leaped again. Oakkit landed beside him. “Help!” he wailed as his hind paws slipped off the stone. Stormkit grabbed his brother’s scruff before Oakkit could slide into the swirling river. “Thanks!” Oakkit regained his balance and jumped for the next stone. The tom yowled behind them. Stormkit hurtled after his brother. “You don’t get away from Goosefeather that easily!” the old cat snarled. Stormkit felt hot breath on his heels and jagged claws spiked his tail. Unbalanced, he leaped for the final stone. His paws hit water as he plunged into the river.” – Crookedstar’s Promise.

          The kits were literally running and clearly terrified, but Goosefeather continues to chase them, which is a violation of the code, and as a medicine cat, it’s worse that he’s attacking kits. And Stormkit and Oakkit are fleeing over a swirling river, and the stones are slippery, making it more dangerous for kits. These are kits, not trespassers, and it’s not Goosefeather’s position to attack other cats (it’s a warrior’s job) even if they’re misbehaving, etc., he has no right to scare them with needless aggression and continue to chase them with his claws unsheathed- he witnesses one of the kits slipping but he doesn’t stop either.

          – Bluefur’s kits are young, and urging her to give them up when Goosefeather could solve the problem more easily is wrong. He should try to report Thistleclaw first, and if that doesn’t work, telling Bluefur to give her kits to RiverClan is Plan B. And it’s leaf-bare, meaning that taking young kits out into the cold can be deadly.

          Overall, I don’t think Goosefeather is evil, but Breezepelt is in no way evil either.

          Furthermore, Goosefeather did nothing to redeem himself, and was never remorseful for his actions- while Breezepelt actually did things during his redemption and regretted his actions.

  • unpopular opinion: the rule that says medicine cats should not have a mate or kits actually makes sense

    hear me out: in real life, doctors or surgeons operating on family members is already a recipe for disaster. obviously, you’re gonna be more emotional because your loved one’s life depends on you, and you’re gonna make bad decisions because of that. in the warrior cats world, no medicine cat is going to want to see their kittens come into the medicine den with horrible battle wounds and be tasked with patching them up. no medicine cat will want to forcefully feed their kittens yarrow if they get deathberry poisoning. the job of a doctor is stressful enough operating on strangers (and in the warrior cats world, clanmates/friends) who can sometimes be screaming and crying in pain; having a family as a medicine cat is simply too dangerous, and too stressful.
    to add to that last point, because there are oftentimes only two or three (sometimes only one) medicine cats for each giant clan, it’s only natural that the job would take up all that cat’s free time. they would have no time for a family when they’re already balancing all that stress with their vital connection to starclan. that’s why having a mate as a medicine cat is considered such a betrayal to the clan; it’s actively abandoning your duties. the lifestyle of a warrior cat is almost constantly fighting, getting sick, falling from trees, stuff like that; they need a medicine cat to always be there to help. not just a medicine apprentice, a full medicine cat.

    that’s not to say this rule is perfectly logical, of course. these problems can be mitigated by having every clan have way more medicine cats (i’m talking eight at the very least for each one, the clans are absolutely massive). this would make it so that available medicine cats can do the others’ jobs when preoccupied with other [family] matters. the problem is that this role is attached to a connection to starclan, and that’s why medicine apprentices have to be chosen by the medicine cat. it’s confusing to me why they would make it this way when the clans are so huge and live such a dangerous lifestyle; why not have every cat learn herbs, and have a separate role for cats with a connection to starclan? but it’s undeniable that the medicine cat holds a lot of cultural importance to the clans, so maybe the fault lies with starclan, and they should just start giving a lot more cats a good connection to starclan or something like that, idk. the bottom line is, if nothing changes, then this rule shouldn’t change, either.

    • Here’s my take on the subject:

      1. In real life, doctors have kids all the time without any problems.
      2. Medicine cats already deal with their family members all of the time? Leafpool had Jayfeather, Hollyleaf and Lionblaze who she cared for. She also has a sister, Squirrelstar, parents, Firestar and Sandstorm. “The lifestyle of a warrior cat is almost constantly fighting, getting sick, falling from trees, stuff like that; they need a medicine cat to always be there to help.” But they don’t always fight anymore. Most issues are resolved without violence, we got a mediator. There wasn’t any violence in ASC except inside Riverclan, and just because a medicine cat has kits doesn’t mean that they will stop doing their job. Most medicine cats are spending at least 70% of the time collecting herbs or worrying about the latest prophecy. Alderheart also had a sister that he cared about but was able to heal her? Are you saying medicine cats should just not have anyone that they care about so they can do their job better?
      3. “they would have no time for a family when they’re already balancing all that stress with their vital connection to starclan. that’s why having a mate as a medicine cat is considered such a betrayal to the clan; it’s actively abandoning your duties” They do have time for their families, because they already do have families. Jayfeather had Hollyleaf and Lionblaze? Alderheart had Sparkpelt? Shadowsight had his entire family? Clans are also extremely tight knit groups, there are no “strangers” so healing anyone would be just as stressful. It’s also not “betraying your clan”, because your mate can take care of the kits while you’re doing your job. This is also ignoring the existence of nursery queens, like Daisy and Ferncloud, who take care of kits as a full time job.

      • 1. but in real life, their kids almost always have other doctors to go to (and most kids in real life with doctor parents don’t get forced to join the army when they get older, at least not anymore, i think…). warriors is weird and has each clan only have a couple of medicine cats all sharing one den, and medicine cats don’t specialize into pediatrician cats, so the possibility of a medicine cat having to treat their own child for a serious problem is much higher.
        2. treating their other family members is definitely also an issue. my point here is that they shouldn’t add to that issue by starting a family of their own. the fact that the cats don’t fight so much anymore only slightly resolves the dangerous lifestyle of a feral cat, as there are still diseases, other wild animals, natural accidents (like trees falling), etc.. kittens, especially newborn kittens, require an insane amount of maintenance (especially if the medicine cat is the mother – if they are the father, then it may be a little less demanding), so yes, it would be a major distraction from their jobs if not preventing them from doing their job entirely. i’m not saying that they can’t have loved ones, i’m only saying that this rule makes logical sense because of how strssful their job already is.
        3. as stated previously, kittens require a lot more maintenance than adult cats. hanging out with family can be as simple as talking while sorts herbs; if you imagine kittens as human toddlers, you can imagine how much time and energy raising them would take. they need constant attention, they need food from their mothers, they need to be taught the warrior code and things they won’t learn during apprenticeship. permanent queens would certainly make this easier, but even then, that’s like leaving your child with a babysitter for nearly their entire childhood life. they still need you, and they still need to a form a bond with you, or they probably won’t be very fond of you later on in life (know this from experience). this also would not get rid of the issue of medicine cats having to treat their own kittens for terrible wounds or conditions. i believe i’ve made my point about the already-messed up nature of the medicine role by now, but i’ll say it again: their job is already stressful enough, and i’m not saying their job is not already ridden with emotional dilemmas. having kittens would only exacerbate this issue.

        to summarize: the job of a medicine cat is messed up and stressful enough, and they don’t need the extra stress of starting a family to harm their job performance, and by extension, their clan. honestly with all this being considered it’s pretty obvious that this role was not thought through very well. because of the nature of the clans, this job is like juggling being an er doctor with being a priest with being a functional human being (i compare the role of a medicine cat to the role of an er doctor because of how frequently the cats would realistically come in and how serious their injuries can be). being an er doctor is one of the most stressful and emotionally demanding jobs in existence, to force all of those responsibilities along with all that starclan crap onto just a couple of cats is ridiculous. honestly idk why any medicine cat would even want to start a family when they have that much stuff to deal with. i may be overexaggerating how stressful this job would be, but i’m just being realistic.

        • “but even then, that’s like leaving your child with a babysitter for nearly their entire childhood life…”

          It wouldn’t be their entire childhood, only if there is a medical emergency that you need to take care of, you could leave you kits with the queens while you are taking care of it. Normal warriors do this all the time when they go out doing stuff, the kits are in the nursery and the warriors come by when they can to check up on their kits.

          I wouldn’t say Starclan even matters in a med cat’s actual duties at all. There are med cats like Shadowsight and Mothwing with no connection to Starclan at all and they are doing perfectly fine. Starclan isn’t much of a responsibility either, its just that you have to talk to you ancestors every half moon for a couple minutes while most of the time they have nothing useful to say to you. Some of the time, if you are integral to the plot, you will get something to stress about, but all these cats usually do is tell their leader. I wouldn’t say it is comparable to being a priest because they don’t actually have any duties other than to chat with dead guys and very rarely tell their leaders about any prophecies once a month.

          Also its not like med cats are always overworking themselves or anything. Most of the time there is no cats that are sick or maybe some mild injuries. Med cats don’t work that much more than ordinary warriors regularly, they only do when there is an emergency. Emergencies don’t happen very often in the books, and yes, for those few chapters the med cat will struggle to be with their kid because they need to solve the problem. The rest of the time, they could be taking care of their kits. Other than those few chapters, the med cat life is fairly routine, collect herbs, prescribe meds / do quick treatment, Starclan once a moon.

          Warriors also has a strong kinship structure within the clans, a kit born in the clans is like kin to everyone. The elders and queens tell the kits what they need to know, which isn’t very much.

          “they need to be taught the warrior code…” They don’t though. We can see in the books that kits pretty much know nothing except from stuff from overhearing elders (and a little bit of xenophobia). They only are taught the warrior code as an apprentice.

          “this also would not get rid of the issue of med cats having to treat their own kittens for terrible wounds or conditions. i believe i’ve made my point about the already-messed up nature of the med role by now, but i’ll say it again: their job is already stressful enough, and i’m not saying their job is not already ridden with emotional dilemmas.,,”

          The emotional dilemmas would probably never happen, worst case scenario the cat just chooses a cat to save. Having more than one med cat would eliminate any biases and prevent a hypothetical from being an emotional dilemma anyway. Leafpool also did have kits and nothing changed for her, no emotional dilemmas and she was able to treat all of their wounds.

          “this job is like juggling being an er doctor with being a priest with being a functional human being (i compare the role of a med cat to the role of an er doctor because of how frequently the cats would realistically come in and how serious their injuries can be)”

          But, how many patients does an ER Doctor have on the average day? 15 – 20. Med cat? 1 – 3. How long does it take an ER Doctor to deal with the issue? A couple hours. Med cat? 10 – 20 minutes. How often do ER doctors have to deal with lethal situations? Every day. Med cats? Once every few moons or so (on average). Sure a med cat may have to deal with dangerous injuries, but 99% of the time they don’t. I already talked about how they aren’t really so much as priests as they are fortune tellers (once a month btw), so I don’t think their jobs are stressful enough to ban them from having kits.

          • everything you describe here is going by book logic rather than actual logic. what i mean by that is, while i’m speaking from a realistic point of view, the books most certainly aren’t. in the recent books, sure, it may make sense for them to be allowed to have families because they get so few patients for some reason, but if you just look at what a medicine cat is supposed to do (that is, treat their whole clan for injuries/illnesses and be their clan’s main connection to starclan) the rule makes way more sense. i believe the authors came up with it when the books were first being written because of the reasons stated in my original comment, before they had the whole book series/evolution planned out.

            to elaborate on emotional dilemmas: this may have been poor wording on my part. it’s very hard to see clanmates in pain or sick and be tasked with saving their lives. apparently the books are written so that the mental health toll on medicine cats is never explored, which kind of sucks, i’m gonna be honest. that’s just another byproduct of the books not being all too realistic.

            to elaborate on them not being written well: treating just a couple patients a day when the clans have over fifty cats or something all living in the wilderness which has natural predators, dangerous terrain, etc., especially when they go to the medicine den for something as minor as a thorn in the paw… that just doesn’t make any sense. if they really did get that few patients and they didn’t actually have to have a connection to starclan (which apparently they don’t anymore, that’s my bad), their jobs are just incredibly free. what do they do all day?

            (by realistic, i mean logical, i don’t think the books need to drop their fantasy atmosphere or anything. obviously this is a children’s book series centered around talking cats so i don’t expect them to actually describe the life of an er doctor. i just expect the books to hold themselves to some sort of logic, which they honestly don’t, which is exactly why this somewhat reasonable rule doesn’t make any sense in this context)

            • (Nice Goku pfp btw!)

              1st Para: We are talking about med cats in the books though, so the book logic is the actual logic lol. I guess you are talking from a design perspective that the way med cats were originally implied to be designed they wouldn’t be able to have kits. But we will never know what was going through the authors’ heads and med cats have consistently been written in a way that would completely allow them to have kits.

              2nd Para: Ikr! It is rarely explored in WC but in emergency cases, it is. The time when the cats start getting Yellowcough, you can see the toll on the med cats before it is cured for good.

              3rd Para: There aren’t many predators in the forests, we see foxes a couple of times throughout the series but 99% the cats never get involved with them. All of the warriors know their territory inside out, so the terrain usually isn’t dangerous to them (except the occasional thorn). But this is how med cats are written throughout the main series, so this is canon. So yeah! Their jobs have a lot of down time that they could be using to take care of their kits the way they are written in canon. Alderheart even does take care of his kit (Twigbranch) and take her to Shadowclan to play with Violetshine when he was a medicine cat.

              “i just expect the books to hold themselves to some sort of logic, which they honestly don’t, which is exactly why this somewhat reasonable rule doesn’t make any sense in this context”

              Yeah, Warriors is notorious for having a lot of plot holes and unexplained decisions by the authors. But this context is what we have, and based on this context, med cats should 100% be allowed to have kits. If Warriors were written in a way that was actually brutal, with many deaths and injuries happening every day, I could see med cats not allowed to have kits as somewhat reasonable. But that isn’t what Warriors is about, so med cats should be allowed kits.

    • I agree and disagree at the same time- Although its easier on the medicine cat not to have a family, they’re missing out on parenting and so on and so forth. I think the rule definitely needs tuning but it does kinda make sense, just less considerate towards the medicine cat’s emotions when they realized what they wont ever get. Its both sad and understandable ;-; Even though they’ve already got a lot of pressure (caring for their clan and such) so they might not be completely rational when they see their blood-related kin, perhaps dying, perhaps ill.

    • In my opinion there should be about the same amount of medicine cats as warriors in each Clan, or the Clans should combine the roles. It makes no sense to me that such a vast majority of cats born in the Clans want to hunt and fight and patrol and work their whole lives instead of becoming medicine cats. Some people go into the military in real life, but not a majority.

      Then again, this could likely be a result of brainwashing. In the Clans, queens are always former warriors except in a few rare, obscure cases. That means that they would likely implore in their kits that the warrior life is a good one. If you are told something repeatedly from a young age, you are going to take it to heart. And except in a few rare cases when the urge is strong enough to become a medicine cat, the brainwashed kits would want to live the warrior lifestyle that their parents tell them is amazing.

      And cats in the Clans probably could combine roles, and a cat could train for twelve moons and learn both warrior and medicine cat skills. It would be a lot more effective than the current system, and injured cats could immediately be taken off of a battlefield and be healed, instead of brought back to camp, where they might die along the way.

      Both of these are solutions which would allow for medicine cats to have kits. But I agree. If the current system stays the way it is, then medicine cats shouldn’t have kits. Sure, doctors have kids in real life. But medicine cats and doctors is not apples to apples. Medicine cats are pretty much constantly working and, if there are only one or two of them, they need to stay on task instead of raising a family. And even if the battles in the Clans did stop somehow, trees, wolves, badgers, foxes, storms, etc aren’t going to follow suit.

  • I’d like to bring up one of StarClan’s inconsistencies:

    Ashfur helped plan to kill his Clan leader, and attempted to kill the cats that he believed were his ex’s kits. Despite this, StarClan decided that he had simply “loved too much” and let him become a member of StarClan.

    Leafpool broke the Warrior Code and the Medicine Cat Code, and betrayed and lied to her Clan, yet StarClan let her join them after she defended herself by saying, “All the mistakes I’ve made, I made out of love.”

    Blackstar, who did too many bad things to count under Brokenstar’s and Tigerstar’s leaderships, was given a second chance by StarClan because they believed he had acted out of misdirected love for his Clan, and the desire to see it prosper.

    Yet, Juniperclaw, who tried (and failed) to poison one cat out of a desire to preserve his Clan, was sent to the Dark Forest, despite showing genuine remorse afterward.

    Brokenstar, who killed numerous cats, sent kits into battle, and exiled his own Clan’s elders, all because he loved his Clan and thought that his actions would make it stronger and more prosperous, was sent to the Dark Forest and is often characterized as the epitome of evil.

    Why do you think this is? Is it simply due to StarClan’s inability to consistently apply the same standards to all cats? Or do you think it’s something else?

    • I don’t think it’s Starclan’s inability to set the same standards for all cats, it’s the authors being unable to get their facts together and making retcons every 2 seconds. Everything is inconsistent, this is Warriors after all!

      Silverstream originally told Graystripe to move on, but they forgot her and Feathertail’s entire personality to make her jealous of Graystripe for following her advice?

      Spottedleaf was a random (fully grown adult for a while now) medicine cat who (barely an apprentice) Firepaw talked to for like 2 seconds and had a crush on. Then Spottedleaf dies, and later tells Firestar to move on with his life and give his love to Sandstorm. Then in Firestar’s Quest and the rest of the series, she acts like she didn’t say that and they were actually deeply in love the whole time?

      And also cats acting extremely out of character…

      The Dark Forest is also pretty much retconned every arc as well, in the beginning it was a prison for the souls of cats who broke the warrior code, they are also forever alone and forever starving. Then cats start inviting other in 2nd arc, Tigerstar invites his sons in and Brambleclaw trusts him even after taking Firestar’s side in TPB and constantly wanting to prove he is nothing like him? Then in the 3 + 4 arcs they start inviting people en masse and being united under the goal to destroy the clans. Then in arc 7 (TBC) its a magical wonderland of Ashfur’s imaginations because “his feelings were too powerful”, and perma-death exists now, and there is water that perma-kills you. I really have a problem with the Ashfur situation, because by saying that Ashfur’s feelings were so strong that he became a Dark Forest God, that’s retroactively saying that the other villains didn’t have strong feelings.

      The concept of fading? When you are forgotten your soul fades away? Gone.
      The idea that you appear in Starclan as you were happiest in life? Retconned.
      (Briarlight)

      The Warriors team needs a better way of keeping track of things, and they should probably slow down releasing books as well lol.

    • i honestly think that Ashfur shouldnt have been accepted to StarClan and Juniperclaw deserved a second chance, the rest i agree with. Brokenstar was a little sick in the head and Leafpool seems lovesick to me. Blackstar did make some decent/good decisions throughout his life. I think StarClan does its best not to be biased (which can be extremely hard if they have to judge their kin knowing theyre deciding their entire afterlife) so i suppose its not completely fair. But thats just my opinion and im sure others have their own. ^^

    • Fallowpaw|🔥Fire alone can save our Clan-Spottedleaf|💧More water will flow before we join StarClan-Ravenpaw|🌫Don't you want to breathe the fresh air?-Graystripe|🌍Like I said, Earth is a big name for a kit your size-Root says:

      First, I want to say that LEAFPOOL DOESN’T DESERVE THE DARK FOREST!!!!!!!! Now that is said, you’re right, StarClan is weird.

    • Okay, I just want to talk about Leafpool first. I believe she was sent to Starclan because she’s “Firestar’s oh so precious daughter” and also because the Erins’ were biased. Although I don’t think she deserves the dark forest, she should’ve at least gotten a punishment. I find it incredibly annoying that Leafpool said she “did it out of love”. If you did it out of love, wouldn’t you have cared for your kits better? Wouldn’t you NOT have dragged Squilf into huge fights and trouble with Bramblestar??

      At this point, if Juniperclaw and Frecklewish somehow ended up in the DF, Leafpool could’ve too.

  • I’d like to address the part in PoT about Lionblaze and Heathertail’s grudge. Personally, I’ve always thought that her grudge began after the battle in Eclipse. Prior to that, Heatherpaw was heartbroken when their friendship ended, but at the end of Dark River, she accepted that they could no longer be loyal to each other as well as their Clans. Jumping to the battle with all four Clans involved, Lionblaze searched for Heathertail during the fight, then forcefully dragged her away from her Clanmates. Now, I know this is a battle, however, in battles, you don’t go around looking for a specific cat. You just chase away all intruders. Heatherpaw’s mentor, Crowfeather, comes looking for his apprentice, and Lionblaze flat-out attacks him, almost killing the WindClan warrior until Heatherpaw stops him. This, probably, is when her ‘grudge’ against Lionblaze began. So now, comparing their behaviours:

    Lionblaze:
    – Stares at Heathertail during a Gathering, and she’s aware of something, even if she doesn’t know that Lionblaze was watching her with hatred. All the same, she feels uneasy.
    – Has dreams of killing Heathertail.
    – Steals herbs from WindClan, and when Heathertail turns up, angrily confronting him, he almost kills her, and she knows that she’d almost died under his claws.

    Heathertail:
    – Watches Lionblaze with contempt.
    – Acts snarky around him.

    I feel like Heathertail’s grudge against Lionblaze is nowhere near ‘petty’. Lionblaze had isolated her from her Clanmates during the battle, and almost kills her mentor Crowfeather, lowering himself to the point where if she hadn’t stopped Lionblaze, Crowfeather would be lying dead. But she proves to not let her grudge harm other cats, prominently shown when she lets Lionblaze take herbs from WindClan. She may have been cold, snarky, or furious, but she has a right to be. The catmint was rightfully WindClan’s, and Lionblaze has no claim to it. Of course she’d be angry if she saw the cat who’d accused her of using the tunnels to attack ThunderClan, then used the tunnels himself to take herbs that belonged to her Clan.

    Overall, I think Heathertail handled their ‘grudge’ better than Lionblaze did, and her behavior is more justified than Lionblaze’s.

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