Need a break from the hubbub of the rest of the blog? Or perhaps you just want a quiet page to discuss Warriors in depth. In any case, feel free to unwind in the Elders’ Den!
[a very fluffy grey cat with thick fur around its neck, long whiskers, and yellow eyes stares into the camera]
What exactly is this page, then? It’s a place to discuss, in detail, particular aspects of the Warriors series – to pick apart ideas and themes that perhaps either get overlooked elsewhere or require a nuanced perspective. And more broadly, it’s a quiet refuge away from the bustle of the rest of the blog!
If there is a more serious subject you’d like to discuss within the Warriors universe, remember to remain respectful of what people are saying and to handle the topics in question with the necessary care and respect. Does this mean this is a page solely for discussing controversial topics? Of course not, but rather if they appear, the mods ask that everyone involved remain calm and thoughtful – should a discussion verge too far into argument territory, we may step in and put an end to it.
[a ginger-and-white tabby cat squeezes its eyes closed as it licks its pawpad]
If you’re looking for a general place to talk about Warriors but you feel like your comment doesn’t quite fit the Elder’s Den, check out the Sunning Patch!
Yall please don’t burn me at the stake but hear me out: If I look past the psychopath arsonist, Squirrel x Ash was the sweetest thing ever <3 he truly did love her and cared about her whereas *gags* Brambleclaw just winked at her and they became mates
I absolutely disagree. There is no way we can look past the psycho arsonist thing. Ashfur did not truly love her, because that isn’t what love is. Love isn’t “You don’t want to be with me? Well then I guess I’ll burn your children alive.” Love would be if Ashfur decided that he would let Squirrelflight be happy, regardless of his own feelings. Love is putting someone before yourself, and not seeking revenge simply because you were rejected. I’m not a huge fan of SquirrelXBramble, but they are better than SquirrelXAsh. And Bramblestar didn’t just wink at Squirrelflight to win her over, they had entire books filled with chemistry, the developing of a bond, and travelling together. Whereas Squirrelflight and Ashfur did not have all that. 🙂
I wrote this before Jeri corrected me on the fact that someone can actually love someone, and be an abusive person 🙂 But even if Ashfur did love Squirrelflight, that doesn’t excuse his actions!
um….
So like, unsucessful dating anyone? Like, you can love a person and still hate them afterwards. I quote Froggy from The Land Of Stories Book 2 (great series by the way):
Something like this: Love can turn to hate, but I don’t think it’s possible to ever stop feeling for them.
Exhibit A: Ashfur
Exhibit B: Mapleshade
Exhibit C: Lloyd
Exhibit D: Basically everyone villain with an actual motive
True <33
I’ll try and compose myself but quite frankly this may be one of the most misguided and quite honestly wrong opinions I have ever seen. Like, thinking like this can genuinely have extremely bad repercussions down the line if you so choose to actually get into a relationship yourself.
Firstly, Squirrel x Ash is not loving whatsoever. Period. It is not loving, and thinking so is extremely dangerous. Ashfur was a possessive, egotistical maniac who grew to think of Squirrelflight less as a cat and more as an object that he felt he had the right to control.
I will reiterate.
That is not love. That is hate.
Ashfur’s feelings for Squirrelflight were not loving or affectionate in any way, they were destructive, dangerous fixations rooted in a twisted sense of entitlement. Ashfur’s “love” for Squirrelflight was so deeply based in his own selfish desire to have her that he couldn’t bear the thought of her choosing someone else. His “love” was conditional, only existing as long as she could be his. When she wasn’t, he lashed out- not only at her, but at her family, her Clan, and anyone who stood in his way.
Consider the implications of romanticizing this. Ashfur didn’t support Squirrelflight; he didn’t listen to or respect her wishes in any way. He only saw her through the lens of his own needs, and when she failed to meet them, he turned to malice. This is toxic. Plain and simple. If someone only “loves” you when you fulfill their ideals, then they do not love you; they love their idea of you, and that is never love.
Ashfur is a terrible, heinous character who did terrible, heinous things in the name of this “love”. Bramblestar, although imperfect, is better in every way.
Well said, Vert. Completely agree with this.
true. But have you heard of childhood trauma? It’s proven that warrior cats take VERY badly if they have terrible childhoods. Brokenstar, literal Ivypool. Ashfur probably had one of the worst. Dead parents, dead littermates, and a sister who was crushed on by his mentor.
Squirrelflight’s rejection is not a event in itself. It was the FINAL straw in a long line of traumatic experiences.
I think it’s very ironic that you use Ivypool considering she turned out to be one of the best warriors ThunderClan has ever seen and probably the next leader, plus has a very stable and loving relationship with Fernsong. Plus, having a “childhood trauma” is certainly no excuse for what Ashfur did- Tallstar, Bluestar, Squirrelflight herself- they’ve all gone through immense trauma and not resorted to the heinous, undefendable stuff that Ashfur did.
I’m not defending murder here. I’m not even trying to say that I support Squirrel Ash. All I’m doing is making you people understand. Also, yes, trauma IS an excuse, or at the very least it is a reason. Remember, these are STORY cats!!! They do not matter! Now if this happened in real life I would NEVER defend him. The plot is above all else! Also, about those three, they all had cats to depend on. Ashfur has nothing. His sister was in the nursery all the time having a life, and so was Cloudtail. Ashfur has no life and Squirrelflight just took his only support system away from him. I am not defending what he did, I am justifying it. Also, I agree, SquirrelxAsh is terrible for both of them.
but you can’t just say that, oh, it’s fictional so therefore it’s defendable. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again- by defending Ashfur you are implicitly encouraging this behavior irl. There is no excuse. Also, Squirrelflight is not obligated to be Ashfur’s “support system”, whatever that means. Squirrelflight is an independent cat, not something that Ashfur is compelled to have.
100% agree
I gotta disagree.
Ashfur was abusive and rude to Squirrelflight, even trying to kill her ‘kits’ (Jayfeather, Lionblaze, Hollyleaf) just to win her over. He even possessed a cat to win her over. Brambleclaw/star was fair and helpful to her. Even though they argued, they ended up being true mates to eachother. Ashfur ended up trying to lock Squif up just to get her.
Bramblestar is the better mate.
agreed, but trauma. Read my previous comments to understand. I wrote an article on this that will probably take five hundred years to come out.
Right, but that didn’t give Ashfur any right at all to bring it out on Squilf/Bramble. He was obsessed and selfish.
He was. That’s why I love him. Flawed characters are the best. Villains with actual motives are the best. Ashfur is a breath of fresh air from the long line of one-dimensional unmotivated villains that is Warrior Cats. Ashfur is as much a victim as he is a villain. Same with Broken star. Lizardstripe was abusive, you are not changing my mind.
I disagree 1000%
It’s impossible to look past the psychopath arsonist thing. And Ashfur didn’t actually love Squirrelflight. If he loved her, he wouldn’t’ve been like “oh, I’m mad that you didn’t mate with me, I’m going to BURN YOUR KITS ALIVE.” No. If Ashfur loved Squirrelflight in a healthy way, he would’ve wanted what was best for her, and wouldn’t’ve tried to stop her from becoming mates with Brambleclaw.
For example (KotLC reference incoming), Keefe liked Sophie from the first or second book, but he knew that Sophie liked Fitz, and that Fitz liked Sophie, so he let them get together. He didn’t try to kill Sophie’s family. He went through like, 3-4 books of watching Fitz and Sophie be “dating” and he was supportive of Sophie. We see in his POV’s in the Novella, that he wants what’s best for Sophie, which is why he lets her be with Fitz. This is what a healthy way of loving looks like.
Now, when we take a look at Ashfur, and how he treated Squirrelflight, it’s obvious that he didn’t really love her in a healthy way.
Also, idk how many times I will say this, because no one agrees with me, but Squirrel x Bramble is a GOOD SHIP. I feel like a lot of mates are like that, where suddenly the people are in love, but they aren’t like that. They go on the sun-down journey together, and we get to see their relationship blossom during that journey. It didn’t just happen in one day.
i dont think bro ever had her best interests at heart, all he did was treat her like an object and obsess over her to the point that he threatened to burn her family to force her to be with him 🙁 he also tried to ‘protect’ her a lot which she didn’t appreciate.
Agreed. He was only evil after Squif rejected him, people?
nobody suddenly becomes evil, ashfur definitely didn’t suddenly transfer from a “nice” guy to a murderous, obsessive psycho. it’s just that he didn’t show it pre-rejection.
CHILDHOOD TRAUMA HOW MANY TIMES MUST I SAY THIS?
Okay, I’m calm again. Sorry about that. Just stop saying “Oh but Thrushpelt!!!!”
Cool. Thrushpelt is morally perfect and….
Wait for it.
Unique.
And most of us Twolegs won’t do what Thrushpelt did, so stop yelling at Ashfur for not doing something we are not doing.
Thank you
oh brother
I understand that you’re likely young and that you don’t fully grasp what their relationship truly is but thinking like this is really bad. Like potentially getting yourself hurt (or worse) in the future bad. Please don’t think like that.
I agree yet disagree. Ash x Squirrel is trash, but Ashfur is not trash. Squirrelflight is trash. Ashfur was JUST recovering from childhood trauma (*cough cough* dead littermates and mother and father*cough *cough*) and then Squirrelflight went ahead and rejected him, which finally pushed Ashy over the edge and into insanity. 🙁
Bro what??? Saying Ashfur only tuned evil after Squilf rejected him (and also saying that it’s HER fault) just makes no sense whatsoever- Squirrelflight can reject whoever she wants, she’s not obligated to be with whoever.
Hot take: Firestar should’ve chosen Longtail as his deputy, not Graystripe.
I know Whitestorm asked for graystripe being his deputy and that graystripe is Fire’s best friend, but I honestly don’t think he should’ve been made deputy at the time. Graystripe recently came back to thunderclap from riverclan, and let’s just say he’s not the most loyal cat in that clan. He could’ve chosen to fight for his kits (a battle which thunderclap would’ve probably won) but instead chose to go to riverclan “for his kits” even though it,s mentioned countless times in the warriors universe that it,s queens who take care of the kits, not the father. Also, in the warrior code, it mentions that deputies should have mentored an apprentice first before becoming deputy. This rule isn’t just here for the sake of it, it’s 1) obvi there so that app. can become warrior and 2) so that the warrior in question learns about responsability, taking care of their clan mates, and being dependable on. Graystripe barely mentored Brackenfur, it was Firestar who mentored him the large majority of the time while graystripe was off and busy meeting Silverstream in secret. Now, I don’t hate graystripe at all, but I personally think that he shouldn’t have been made deputy so soon. And why longtail? I think that Longtail had GREAT character development. He went from being a bitter, anti-kittypet warrior who was besties with Tigerstar to a truly loyal warrior of thunderclap who (more or less) kind of accepts kitty pets better. I think that the fact he stayed in thunderclan and didn’t go with Tigerstar truly shows that he was loyal to his clan (*cough cough Graystripe cough cough*) and he valued it above anything, no matter what (even tho Tigerstar was his friend). He also progressively got better over the books, I loved hothead friendship between him and mousefur. Additionally, Longtail was more of a senior warrior, even when Firepaw joined. He has much more experience, and mentored FIREPAW and Swiftpaw. Moreover, it would show that Firestar trusted him fully and fully understood that Longtail was extremely loyal to ThunderClan.
Gosh I wrote a whole article-
(eRm aCtuAlly I do plan to maybe write an article about it, maybe).
It’s totally fine if you don’t agree, I would like to hear you guys’ opinions on the matter! I’m no Graystripe-hater, it’s just I think it was way too soon for him to become deputy, he isn’t the number 1 most loyal cat, and he was busy meeting off with Silverstream instead of mentoring Brackenpaw. Byeee!
I feel like everything you listed is more of a reason to choose Graystripe as deputy.
Yes, he’s left his Clan once to be with his kits in RiverClan. Yes, he did neglect Brackenpaw to see Silverstream. Yes, he was sometimes irresponsible, particularly in his youth. But that’s what makes him a better choice. He understands what it’s like to feel your loyalty being torn. He understands the importance of being a dedicated Clanmate. He understands, because he’s been through that and learned from it.
And… I think that all this experience has led him to be, if anything, more tightly bounded to his Clan. More open-minded than the average warrior. To Firestar, Graystripe’s the type of deputy he needs. Someone whom he can count on to do the right thing. Someone with a lot of experience in all sorts of dilemmas.
tbh, Longtail would’ve been a decent deputy, but I feel like choosing Graystripe was the right decision :3
I disagree about Graystripe being disloyal.
Graystripe was loyal. He went to RiverClan for some time, but the entire reason he returned it because he was too loyal to ThunderClan to fight them in battle.
Also, him avoiding a battle by joining RiverClan was a very good thing of him to do. Instead of risking cats’ lives, he risked his own happiness because he didn’t want cats getting hurt. This is not a sign of disloyalty; it is a sign of care for his Clan and his kits. Also, it would’ve been better for him to be there for his kits, at least in their childhood, because their mother was dead and RiverClan probably had hard feelings for them due to being half-Clan.
Also, Longtail didn’t mentor Firestar.
As for Longtail being a deputy, I do think that he would’ve been a better deputy than Graystripe, solely because he puts his head above his heart, while Graystripe puts his heart above his head. Graystripe isn’t wrong for being like this; I just think that a cat who puts their head over their heart makes a better deputy than one who puts their heart over their head. And it would’ve wrapped up Longtail’s character arc nicely.
I agree with Marshmallow 👍
I highly disagree on the putting your head over your heart thing. I mean, excuse me, people who are guided by their heart are just as capable as people who are guided by their head? They both have good and bad traits, and none of them is better than the other.
I agree more with putting ur head with the heart at the same place!
I think that it depends on the situation if a deputy should put their head before their heart or their heart before their head, but having Longtail as deputy would balance Firestar’s compassionate leadership with Longtail’s smarts, while Firestar and Greystripe are both mostly driven by their heart.
I agree with all your points. Longtail should’ve definitely become deputy over Graystripe.
I agree that Longtail would have been a great deputy. He would have had to retire after he got blinded anyway, so then Graystripe could step in as deputy. However, I do think that Graystripe was a good deputy and that he was loyal 🙂
Let’s take you’re points apart and see what I’m trying to decide on right now.
point 1: you say that he went to Riverclan for his kind, and could’ve fought for them in the end but didn’t
MY Opinion: Greystripe was trying to be loyal to who he wanted to be to. In the end, he chose his clan, which frankly is the better choice. He wasn’t being unloyal, he was in a state of deciding where he wanted to go. Think of Bluestar. She chose her clan over her kits, and does that make her unloyal? No. Greystripe might have moved clans, but he came back to the one he believed he belonged to.
point 2: Greystripe had barely mentored Brackenfur.
MY opinion: As you say, deputies need to have mentored someone to be deputy. Greystripe did have an apprentice. Even if he didn’t train Bracken that well, it’s still classed as having an apprentice.
Now let’s talk about Longtail.
Longtail was stupid and thoughtless at the start, but can we consider the fact that he lost his eyesight anyway, so Greystripe would’ve became deputy anyway. His friendship with Mousefur doesn’t make a difference. In fact, Mousefur might have made a better deputy than Longtail, but that’s another story. Longtail wouldn’t have been a good deputy, because he seemed to have liked following orders more than making them, therefore I believe Greystripe made a better deputy.
Thank you for listening to my Tedtalk👍✨️
I mostly agree, but Firestar couldn’t just ignore Whitestorm’s dying words. Even if we might disagree with them, it would be disrespectful to Whitestorm to just choose a different cat as deputy. But yeah, apart from that I totally agree with you. Greystripe has a good heart, but he isn’t the most loyal cat and would probably refuse to battle against his kits, which would be problematic.
What is that one character that drives you absolutely insane?
For me, it’s Twigbranch (and/or Tigerstar II). They are so similar in the sense that they are both spoilt, selfish and egotistical, and expect the entire universe to bend to their will.
For the entire sixth series, Twigbranch had been complaining that she never got to meet her blood family. In spite of all this, her biological sister was facing a group of dangerous cats that threatened the Clans’ existence, and she didn’t lift a finger. Instead, she did the exact opposite of what she should have done. When ThunderClan finally took action against Darktail, Twigbranch intentionally accentuated herself by running away, claiming that nobody cared about her.
Swiftpaw
Wow why? Im curious
Skystar. He’s made out to be a redeemed villain but his redemption arc was awful. He’s an ableist, selfish, manipulative, aggressive murderer who belongs in the Dark Forest. He attacked Bumble for no reason when she crossed borders she didn’t know existed, and killed her. He attacked Arc in the same manner. He manipulated RiverClan’s faith in StarClan to gain territory. He has started two battles which killed several cats, one long after his so-called ‘redemption arc’. He ordered his cats to kill an innocent medicine cat gathering herbs. He killed a cat who helped raise him when she wasn’t even fighting him. He escalated a feud between Red Claw and Willow Tail that could’ve easily been solved with words. He exiled his injured brother, refused his own kit a home, exiled a cat who was truly loyal to him because he was injured, and the second he got into StarClan, he attacked someone because he didn’t get another life.
In my opinion, Skystar is one of the worst cats in the entire series. He belongs in the core of the Dark Forest. I despise him more than any other cat.
I second this 😛
I third this
I fourth this
I fifth this
OMG yall :PP
I sixth this ngl
I completely agree. I actually wrote an article on this subject ages ago. His redemption arc was so poorly written, he killed cats for not abiding to the ridiculous rules he put in place, and worst of all, he believes all of the absolutely horrifying things he did are the right things to do. In my opinion, he should absolutely go to the Dark Forest, and it’s crazy to me why he hasn’t been sent there already.
I actually think Clear Sky is funny by what a jerk he is and he was a good villain *dodges tomatoes* 🙁
Normally I would agree. However, Skystar is in StarClan, and he is made out to be redeemed and misunderstood, when he isn’t. If he was made out to be a villain, I’d like him more, but he isn’t.
True!
I seventh this
I guess no character drives me insane. I’ll have to blame other factors.
I’d have to say Skystar, the founder of SkyClan. He was so inconsiderate of other cat’s feelings and killed multiple innocent cats for no reason. Then he was supposed to get a redemption arc later in DotC, which did happen, but then got backtracked in Moth Flight’s Vision (A book meant to be POST-DotC) just for the sake of the plot.
To be completely honest, I don’t even understand why Skystar is in StarClan when Juniperclaw, who didn’t kill any cats and had a consistent redemption arc, went to the Dark Forest. Skystar deserves the DF!
The point is, his redemption arc didn’t get backtracked into Moth Flight’s Vision. Throughout that book, he killed his own medicine cat, and declared that he was ‘never wrong’, completely ruining his already appalling redemption arc. I agree with the rest of your points though 🙂
Ohh, thank you for pointing that out!
No. He was bad, but not nearly as bad as Riverstar’s Home
Tigerstar II. The amount of anger he gives me 😭 He is such an arrogant, annoying character. He has never had do genuinely fight for a single thing in his life. He lost Dovewing? Don’t worry about it, she’ll end up choosing him again anyway because he’s just so charismatic and great! He abandoned his Clan for Dovewing? No worries, he’ll just waltz back in there and everyone will accept him as leader within 2.5 seconds, despite the fact that ShadowClan literally turned on Rowanstar for not being a good enough leader. Tigerstar II spent the entirety of OOTS choosing his Clan over Dovewing, but after he becomes leader and actually should prioritize his Clan over his family, suddenly he decides Dovewing matters more. He literally let SkyClan into his territory, then complained about it. He thinks he’s so strong and great.
Onestar, I hate him so much! He really did drive me insannnne in Crowfeather’s Trial (and just about everybody else in that book /jkkk)
i second this
Tigerstar II or the BramblexSquirrel ship.
Tigerstar II
Darkstripe. He tried to murder Sorrelkit in cold blood, plus followed Tigerstar even when he knew what he had done to Redtail and tried to lead the dogs to ThunderClan’s camp. His only reasons for betraying ThunderClan was that their leader was a kittypet and that he is loyal to Tigerstar. Even if Firestar was once a kittypet, he proved to be a great leader and why does where you were born matter anyway?
Lol i love Darkstripe
Crowfeather (sorry Jacki) and Tigerstar II
Nooo not crowfie
Nightstar was AWFUL!
And Twigbranch’s kin were all in SkyClan, but she left for ThunderClan. So much for being with her kin.
Hawkfrost
I think CloudxBright is just the cutest ship. They’re perfect together.
YESSS! They are my favorite ship for more reasons than one <33 And for those who ship Swift x Bright, those two are first cousins
Agreed Swiftpaw and Brightpaw just had the same intention and goal, it doesn’t make sense to ship them together. Maybe platonically but I can’t recall them interacting before they tried to take on the dogs.
Yeah, they were just two ambitious young cats who decided to work together, not lovers.
they are really cute aa but heatherxbreeze is my favorite :3
YES
I agree! <3333 They’re the cutest. Nobody else would have done for Brightheart what Cloudtail did. ❤️❤️❤️
Tbh I’m a bit tired of them lol. They’re cute but they get too much attention imo 😛
agreed
agreed
agreed, but I still love them
YESSSS MY FAVORITE OF ALL TIMEEEEEEEEEEEEE
I totally agree! Cloudtail was the only cat willing to figure out new fighting moves and asked Firestar to change her name.
I also agree, but Firestar probably would have changed her name anyways.
.I don’t get why everyone hates on Ashfur, my fellow feline.
First of all, he was only evil after Squirrelstar rejected him, and he was really caring, too. Furthermore, he was misunderstood, and people blame him for taking over Brambleclaw’s body, but he had been rejected by a cat he loved deeply for some mouse-brain instead! Also, I would probably take over some cat’s body if I was rejected, only to fail. I do get he overreacted, but that was only because Erins needed to spice up the story. If Erins didn’t use him, he would have been a GREAT cat!
That’s that for lectures #1!
Ashfur wasn’t a very good cat to begin with. Yes, he appeared to be a kind, well-meaning cat at first, but him reacting so violently to rejection is not that he suddenly became evil, it is him showing his true colors. Him taking over Bramblestar’s body only displays his selfishness further- he only cared about his feelings, and disregarded Squirrelflight’s completely. His obsession with revenge backs that up- whether it is his conspiracy with Hawkfrost to kill Firestar or attempting to murder the Three, it shows that he was a terrible cat. IMO, he’s not misunderstood, he’s an obsessive cat who was extremely self-centered and entitled.
“He was only evil after Squirrelflight rejected him” I will never stop saying this, every single human being (and in this case, cat) has the God given right to reject someone. Squirrelflight rejecting Ashfur does not make her a horrible person who deserves to have her children burned alive. She simply followed her heart, and it told her to be with Bramblestar. Squirrelflight has much more chemistry with him, anyway – they literally had an entire journey together, and their enemies to lovers romance was cute. If Bramblestar is a mouse brain, what does that make Ashfur?
Ashfur did not love Squirrelflight, and I will die on this hill. What Ashfur had was either obsession or pure psychopathy. Normal people / cats who are genuinely in love would have stepped back and allowed Squirrelflight to find happiness with the tom of her choice. Love is not “I love you when you want to be with me. Otherwise, I’m going to ruin your life.” What would have happened when they got into arguments, as all couples do? Ashfur was unstable. Also, this was not a sudden thing that came out of nowhere for the plot. It seems like the Erins have always been building toward Ashfur being insane – if I remember correctly, he tried to lure Firestar to his death to get revenge on Squirrelflight.
I don’t really like Bramblestar, but he was a better cat and mate than Ashfur ever was and ever would be.
I want everyone reading this to imagine how they would feel if someone attempted to kill their family because they rejected someone. Would you feel loved and be like “well I shouldn’t have rejected him!!” No, you wouldn’t, so why should Squirrelflight? (Mods, feel free to delete this last bit if it’s a bit too much :p)
I agree with you, Silv, although I’d just like to interject here because I think this is a slightly damaging point of view:
“cats who are genuinely in love would have stepped back and allowed Squirrelflight to find happiness with the tom of her choice.”
Love is not, by necessity, a good thing. Ashfur COULD have been “genuinely in love” with Squirrelflight, and that wouldn’t have made what he decided to do any better (obviously). But being wholeheartedly in love with someone and being awful and harmful to them aren’t mutually exclusive. You should still get yourself out of that situation, regardless of whether it’s “real love”.
Thanks for correcting me on that, Jeri!!! You’re very right <333
Silv, I agree with you 100% about this. I completely fail to understand how anyone can try to justify Ashfur’s actions.
(TRIGGER WARNING: I’M GOING TO MENTION ACTUAL HUMAN MURDERS)
I find a useful way to look at these situations is to imagine that the characters are real humans rather than fictional cats. Unfortunately, there are stories in the news regularly about men who behave like Ashfur. When they get rejected, they kill or injure their ex-wives or ex-girlfriends and/or their children. There is nothing romantic about this, it is the most extreme kind of toxic masculinity, and only those who suffer from the same kind of toxicity could think it is acceptable. The fact that Ashfur is a fictional cat doesn’t make his case any different.
I have experienced my share of rejections in my long life. Rejection is painful, but a sane person takes the time to deal with the pain, and maybe examines the way they might have been at fault in the situation, and then moves on. The person who chooses to dwell on the pain and nurses their grievance may end up like Ashfur.
[Note to mods: feel free to delete or edit this if you think it crosses a line]
I totally agree, WhiteWhiskers! Thank you so much for saying this 🙂
Totally agreed
Well, I like squirrelflight. I never said she was a bad cat???
You can’t really say you “like” a cat and then go around and defend a relationship in which that cat was blackmailed, manipulated and emotionally + physically abused. not tryna be rude, but I’m just pointing out the fallacy
Yes, but liking a cat doesn’t mean that a ship is healthy. Just because you like Squirrelflight, it doesn’t mean that Ashfur is a good mate. Liking a cat does not change the fact that Ashfur was a good/bad cat.
Sure, Squilf broke his heart, but honestly, people have the right to reject people. That doesn’t justify anything Ashfur did. No one can force anyone to love them, it’s your own choice and Squilf wasn’t interested in Ashfur. That’s something people just have to accept, both in books and irl, and it doesn’t at all justify trying to destroy the person I question’s life.
Besides, if Ashfur really cared about Squilf, he would know she was happier with Brambleclaw anyway.
Like Daisy, respecting Cloudtail’s relationship with Brightheart. You all forgot to mention her. She didn’t go evil and kill Whitewing or Brightheart. And yet, people still hate her for doing so.
I highly disagree with everything.
For one, it doesn’t matter in the slightest that he only became evil after Squirrelstar rejected him. He had absolutely no right to do the things he did because of a breakup (and that’s being generous. He and Squirrelflight were never even mates). He got many cats killed and almost killed Lionblaze, Hollyleaf, Jayfeather, and Squirrelflight herself.
I don’t think Ashfur was misunderstood. He was a terrible cat who tried to destroy the Clans because he got rejected. He may have loved Squirrelflight*, but a rejection from her doesn’t give him the right to try to destroy the Clans.
“Spicing up the story” is essential for a good story in the first place. Being a great cat would change Ashfur’s personality entirely, and for every evil cat in the series you could say ‘They would’ve been great if the Erins hadn’t made them evil!’. That doesn’t matter. They were written to be evil, so they are canonically evil. Even in The New Prophecy, he tried to get Firestar killed by plotting with Hawkfrost. Ashfur was never a great cat and is not misunderstood or justified.
*As Squirrelflight noted herself in The Broken Code, Ashfur’s feelings for her were much more based on obsession than love. If he loved her, he would want her to be happy, which he didn’t. He wanted her for himself.
AGREED
I disagree. As you’ve said, he seemed caring at first- but he ‘turned evil’ after Squirrelflight rejected him. That’s a whole flashing red flag right there, in my opinion. Squirrelflight had the right to be mates with whoever she wanted. She absolutely did not need to return his ‘love’- love isn’t a trade, you can’t be mad at someone for not returning your feelings 😛 That’s just selfish. If Ashfur had been a decent cat, he would have at least backed off.
good lord please don’t tell me thinking of ashfur as “good” in any way is making a resurgence
anyways I’ll just say this: normal people do not possess bodies and burn things when they get rejected.
“Also, I would probably take over some cat’s body if I was rejected”
I’m disturbed /srs
Disagreed! He’s just like Mapleshade, breaking down after one setback. He’s a very GOOD AND AMAZING villain, don’t get me wrong but dude people will reject you. They have a right to and just going crazy about that just shows how much you don’t know and don’t understand them. I won’t try to take over somebody but I would try again to live with pride and show that I don’t care about that person the second they don’t about me. Yes yes, he add a lot of FIREY spice but and the Erins used him like all the other characters but in my true opinion he isn’t a good character and how broken down he was for several years isn’t a good thing/
It’s understandable, natural even, that Ashfur felt hurt after being rejected. What’s not okay, is how he chose to handle those feelings. He could’ve handled it the way Thrushpelt did. He could’ve chosen to remain friends with her, and support her despite his feelings being unreciprocated. She could’ve still been in his life as a friend. Or he could’ve chosen to reflect on himself and figure out what he could’ve done better. Or he could’ve chosen to be happy single without anyone and still focus on improving who he was a cat [person]. Instead, he chose to sit in those angry vengeful feelings and let them eat away at him.
Just because he couldn’t handle her rejecting him, he conspired to kill his leader, then possessed the body of said leader’s successor, and tried to destroy the whole Clans. And he put innocent younger cats who had just barely started to grow out of kithood [the three] in danger. That is not excusable. That behavior is not justified. And it’s definitely NOT a healthy, natural reaction that anyone should view as an acceptable response to being rejected. That behavior, quite frankly, shows that his ‘love’ for her was an unhealthy obsession and possessiveness, and that he saw her as something he owned. He even attacked her, if I recall TBC correctly. That is not love. At all. He didn’t really care about Squirrelflight, just the idea of having her to himself.
Squirrelflight had a right to reject him. No cat [or human] is obligated to stay in a relationship just to keep the other party happy, and if one or both partners are relying on the other to make them happy then it isn’t a healthy relationship in the first place.
I disagree. Ashfur treated “love” as a transaction. He would supply her with affection and she would love him in return. He would fight her battles for her and she should be grateful. She decided it wasn’t working and he tried to kill her entire family. Not only was this an extreme escalation, but love ISN’T a transaction. “i do this, so you do this.” Love is effort poured in from both sides without a thought of reward. To use a more trivial example, I gift things to my friends not to get something in return, but because i want to see them smile. Love, or any relationship, isn’t about what you get in return. If Ashfur had truly loved Squirrelflight, he wouldn’t have stifled her. And he would have accepted her rejection. If Ashfur’s feelings were genuine love rather than a need for control, he would have wanted her to be happy
Does anyone dislike/hate Star Flower for defending Clear Sky too much, not because of the whole Thunder thing. When Micah died from Clear Sky’s obvious unfairness, Star Flower didn’t try and calm sense into Clear Sky. She just told Moth Flight “A cat you have loved has died. But is it fair to blame Clear Sky? Or Red Claw? Do you blame the tree?” (Didn’t quite get the qoute right) First off, asking her if she blamed the tree was kind of random and seemed like she was trying to distract Moth Flight from Clear Sky’s faults. Clear Sky’s desperation to prevent his sister-in-laws cough (and another warrior named Rocy) caused someone’s death, but apparently Star Flower believes someone dying automatically means no one is at fault, even if it’s a cruel scuffle over a few drops of honey Skyclan didn’t need. And Slate needed obvious help, so Star Flower thought it was okay her descaesed brother in law’s mate didn’t get help
I hate her for the Thunder thing but ALSO for that, it’s so annoying!!!
I agree! Star Flower isn’t my least favorite character (That goes to Skystar) but I don’t like her
I agree with all of this. The whole thing with Thunder didn’t make me dislike Star Flower, because she was under no obligation to return Thunder’s feelings, but it did make me dislike Clear Sky even more than I already did because why, of all the cats he could choose as his mate, would he choose the one he knew his SON had a crush on??? My dislike for Star Flower comes from her absolute unwillingness to make anyone else take responsibility for their actions, particularly Clear Sky, who should’ve taken WAY more responsibility.
She’s so annoying. I agree ^^
idk, maybe she did excuse his actions a bit too much but I still like her :3
Am I the only one that ships Squirrel x Bramble? I feel like everyone hates them, but I don’t. Here’s why:
They have a realistic, loving relationship. I feel like a lot of times, there are mates where they just never ever argue, and just are completely in love their whole lives. But irl, it doesn’t work like that. And I feel like it’s unrealistic and boring, if they are just perfect for each other in every way. Plus, while they do argue a lot, the fact that they are still able to be mates, and love each other proves a lot, It shows they really care about each other. I also like how they didn’t fall in love immediately. It wasn’t too predictable, and watching them start to fall for each other was kinda fun. And while the two argue, they still tease each other, love each other, and have a healthy, realistic relationship.
I don’t necessarily agree with the fact that it’s a healthy relationship but it is a very realistic portrayal of irl relationships and all the bumps and rough patches that come with loving somebody
I don’t love that ship but I agree that it’s realistic! Kind of underrated
Mini Spoiler Warning for Squirrelflights Hope
Your correct Mistpaw/feather. They did work things out. However, there relationship was a constant arugment or a plot point in the series. When Sparkpelt got depressed, some of it was caused by Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw’s arguing. The rest of the depression triggered by Larksong and Flickerkit’s deaths. At times it got annoying that they were fighting like “here we go again.” And a lot of people who went through abuse were possibly annoyed and traumitzed that Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw always had another argument. I think the toxicity in Brambleclaw and Squirrelflight should have ended a while ago, because there relationship reminds me of my own parents. It’s quite hard to read. Maybe I should make my parents read Warriors.(YOUR A SOKEEFE SHIPPER HIGH FIVE SISTER. Pls respond to my post above to others who read this comment)
That is EXACTLYYYY how I feel, you worded my opinion perfectly. Glad to know I’m not alone lol.
THANK YOU I’VE BEEN WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO SAY THAT
This surpassed the maximum character count in a comment so this is part #1.
I like the relationship too. It had rough moments due to many reasons: Brambleclaw’s problematic family, Squirrelflight going behind Brambleclaw’s back several times, Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw having to communicate effectively while being mates and sharing leadership of ThunderClan, and Brambleclaw experiencing what he did in The Broken Code. However, throughout all of these, the two stuck together and faced these challenges.
Hawkfrost complicated the relationship because Brambleclaw trusted him due to being his kin, despite his obvious treacherous nature. However, when Hawkfrost’s true intentions became more obvious, Brambleclaw realized who he truly was and killed Hawkfrost, repairing his relationship with Squirrelflight as he understood her perspective.
After Sunrise, Brambleclaw temporarily broke up with Squirrelflight after it was revealed that she lied about Hollyleaf, Lionblaze, and Jayfeather being his kits. I think that he was justified in doing so, because I imagine that it must’ve been hard for him to be mates with someone who had lied for years about his supposed kits. Squirrelflight should’ve trusted Brambleclaw enough to tell him about Leafpool’s kits.
This situation highlights a major part of Squirrelflight’s personality that helps complicate their relationship several times: her tendency to do things herself even when it isn’t necessary, and put all of her faith into her own abilities. There are times when this can help her, but in a relationship it provides a breeding ground for distrust. Ultimately, she learns that at times she cannot do things herself in The Broken Code, which helps her put more faith in Brambleclaw.
In The Last Hope, the Great Battle takes place, and Squirrelflight and Brambleclaw, bound together by their shared camaraderie in the battle and throughout the threat of the Dark Forest cats, become mates, and Brambleclaw appoints Squirrelflight as his deputy. This ends up causing issues later in their relationship.
The original comment surpassed the maximum character count in a comment so this is part #2.
Recently I reread Squirrelflight’s Hope, and that made me like the ship more. Brambleclaw was under a lot of stress in that book after Darktail’s reign, and that made him put certain things above his relationship with Squirrelflight. Squirrelflight went behind his back several times when helping the Sisters (although she was ultimately doing this for the best), and with her being Brambleclaw’s mate as well as his deputy, Brambleclaw struggled to figure out what to do about the situation, causing him to try to control Squirrelflight. This caused a strain in her relationship, amplified by Squirrelflight’s continued want to have another litter of kits with Brambleclaw (and as she mentioned herself, this was unknowingly putting pressure on her mate), and the continued fear ThunderClan had of outsiders after Darktail’s reign, which only Squirrelflight and Leafpool saw past. However, after Squirrelflight almost died, Brambleclaw realized his mistakes and they moved on from this together, united by yet another overcome strain in their romance.
During The Broken Code, Ashfur, who Squirrelflight had rejected as a new warrior in favor of becoming mates with Brambleclaw, took over Brambleclaw’s body, now playing as Squirrelflight’s mate and ThunderClan’s leader, although he was a bad actor at both, such as when he called Dewnose ‘Dewtail’ and acting nothing like Brambleclaw. Squirrelflight quickly noticed this, and with Rootspring telling her of a conversation she and Brambleclaw had had about Leafpool on the Gathering Island, at the end of Squirrelflight’s Hope, Squirrelflight new that something strange was going on. With the help of Mothwing, ShadowClan, Rootspring, and several ThunderClan allies, Squirrelflight and her allies imprison Ashfur, who is trapped in Brambleclaw’s body. Ashfur escapes to the Dark Forest, and eventually a patrol, not including Squirrelflight, who didn’t want to give Ashfur the pleasure of seeing Squirrelflight again, went to the Dark Forest and killed Ashfur, for good. Brambleclaw emerged and reclaimed his body, and he and Squirrelflight went on with their lives in ThunderClan.
However, in A Starless Clan, Brambleclaw was shown to be traumatized and dysfunctional after the events he experienced in The Broken Code. He and Squirrelflight once again have a strained relationship, but this is once again resolved when Brambleclaw steps down as leader, and becomes an elder, able to focus solely on himself and his relationship with Squirrelflight, uncomplicated by leadership.
Ultimately, I think that Brambleclaw and Squirrelflight both have issues and flaws that made their relationship difficult, but they struggled through this every time. I like their relationship for this.
Thank you, Mallow. This explains my opinion well.
I respectfully disagree with you on them having a “healthy relationship”
The way Bramblestar treats Squilf when he’s mad is anything BUT healthy
He emotionally abused her. I know this might sound controversial/harsh, but if you compare the cycle of abuse to what Bramblestar makes Squirrelflight goes through (especially while he’s mad) you’ll notice several similarities. It’s not just arguing, it’s emotionally abusing and manipulating your mate and putting all the blame on her. He gives her the cold shoulder several times in the series and ignores her, and when him and Squilf broke up and Squilf started seeing her options and spending time with Ashfur, he became very harsh and punished her at whatever occasion he got, also treating her almost like an apprentice instead of a warrior.
He often either gaslights or guilt-trips her, for example, when the Sisters are injured, he doesn’t allow them in ThunderClan but when Squirrelflight confronts him about his decision, he replies with “You are my deputy. Aren’t you supposed to support me?” This is guilt-tripping. Using the fact that she’s his deputy as a way to manipulate her into giving up and letting him do what he wants. In almost every single stage of their relationship, there’s a serious power imbalance: warrior-apprentice, deputy-warrior, and leader-deputy. I don’t think that such a power imbalance really helps with their relationship, especially as Bramblestar uses/could use his power advantage over Squirrelflight in their relationship. I honestly think this is anything BUT healthy. Sure, you could say Squirrelflight is stubborn, Squirrelflight also is sometimes jerky and argues a lot, but even with that in consideration this gives Bramblestar NO EXCUSE to act the way he does to Squirrelflight. Additionally, Bramblestar makes her feel guilty about wanting to have kits , AND EVEN SPARKPELT, SQUIRRELFLIGHT’S OWN DAUGHTER, POINTS THAT OUT. Then there’s usually a time period where everything is fine (usually with Squirrelflight having a litter), but it doesn’t last very long and there’s often another problem that’s going to come. When they argue, Bramblestar/claw is HORRIBLE to Squilf, ignores her and gives her the cold shoulder, and punishes/humiliates her whenever he can. I do agree with the fact that most relationships in Warriors is all lovey-dovey, unrealistic, and quite frankly boring, Bramble and Squirrel’s relationship isn’t “normal”, but abusive. And yes, Squirrelflight IS the victim, no matter how snotty or bratty she might be (which I honestly think she isn’t). Yes maybe they do love each other, but the way Bramblestar/claw treats Squilf when they’re going through hard times is unacceptable. Even if you argue or have a fight with your partner, you have to still treat them with respect and not punish or ignore them completely, ESPECIALLY if you are the one “in power” in the relationship. And it’s never ok to use and manipulate your partner’s feelings and emotions and to guilt-trip them for them to agree with or forgive you, like what Beamble is doing. It’s fine if you think that they’re cute or you like the ship, but just bear in mind that Brambleclaw/star IS and CAN BE emotionally abusive to Squilf, and though I don’t rlly think he realizes it or that he’s necessarily a bad cat, his actions towards Squilf when he’s mad is not acceptable (he can be upset ofc, but he can’t take his anger out at her and punish/ guilt-trip her for it).
Sorry for my long rant lol. Also if you want to find out more info about BramblexSquilf and why/how bramble is kind of abusive, you can see Moonkitti’s vid Bramble Bad.
Sorry for the wording, it’s just sometimes I get rlly carried away when I’m writing about stuff like that :(. What I said above is entirely my opinion, while there is some evidence to support it, it’s totally fine if you think otherwise. But I still do think brambleclaw/star is kinda abusive and how he treated Squilf is bad.
Yeah, I agree with you.
I honestly cannot remember anything about their relationship 😭 I remember disliking the ship in later books though.
For me, all Brambleclaw thought about Squirrelflight for a while was that she was just some annoying apprentice and had to constantly pick on her the entire journey to the sun-drown-place. They’re relationship did build up through a series of books, which definitely gave you time to get into their relationship – like most ships don’t – and it truly was a great ship. Until it was totally destroyed.
Sure, the arguing makes them feel more realistic within their love life, the fact that they are only portrayed throughout the books arguing and getting mad at each other for the smallest reasons. All. The. Time. They can’t ever agree, and Brambleclaw making Squirrelflight deputy didn’t help this. They only continued to argue, and what I felt was their loving relationship just turned into constant – and annoying – arguing that ruined the whole thing for me.
I’ve been seeing some honestly pretty problematic and worrying content about this topic over the last few days, so I’d thought I’d make a comment actually addressing it.
I’ll start by saying this. Ashfur’s feelings for Squirrelflight were not love. In any way. To think so is extremely alarming. Ashfur did not love Squirrelflight, he wanted to control her. There is a fundamental difference between these two.
Love, true love, is about mutual respect, support, honesty, and freedom. Ashfur’s relationship with Squirrelflight contained none of these aspects. Ashfur’s obsession with Squirrelflight was not based on love. Rather, he saw her as not as an equal but as something that he felt he had the right to control, and this emotional attachment soon morphed into a toxic need to dictate her every choice.
When Squirrelflight rightfully rejected him, Ashfur’s response was not one of acceptance or understanding; instead, he immediately spiraled into jealousy and wanting vengeance. Rather than reflecting and bettering himself, he resorted to manipulation and threats.
Let me ask you something. Does that sound loving?
Was it love when he tried to kill Squirrelflight during the fire, when he wanted to “make her suffer like he did?”
Was it love when he took over Bramblestar’s body, enslaving the spirits of deceased cats and wanting to destroy the clans because she rejected him?
Does that sound like love in any way?
This isn’t just about a fictional character, mind you; it reflects real-life dynamics where possessiveness and manipulation can masquerade as “love”.
Defending Ashfur and romanticizing his actions is extremely damaging and harmful. By defending him, you serve to normalize these kinds of toxic and dangerous behaviors that should NEVER be found in any relationship.
I definitely agree with this. He was an interesting villain but in no way were his actions okay.
I agree. Ashfur never loved Squirrelflight and if such things would happen irl it would absolutely not be ok
Sooo true! Everyone has the right to reject someone, there are no conditions.
thank you for saying this. some of the comments I’ve been seeing recently are very concerning, so I’m glad you said something!
i agree!! :3
I completely agree, some opinions I see about Ashfur (Mapleshade too, but that’s a WHOLE different rant for another day) are really disturbing, concerning, and awful to read.
Ashfur was entirely obsessive and abusive. I’m not sure why anyone can think “if we don’t become mates, i’ll try to murder your entire family, possess your REAL mate, and, oh DESTROY THE CLANS, + STARCLAN, + THE DARK FOREST just because you rejected me” is an okay thing to do. He is a straight-up VILLAIN, yes, a cool villain, but should never ever be defended.
I absolutely, wholeheartedly agree with this. I could not have said it better myself. Ashfur represents so many toxic people that actually exist in the world, and defending that is really concerning.
I’ve seen some opinions floating around on Ashfur and i’d like to make a point clear.
Ashfur’s “love” for Squirrelflight was not true love. I’ve heard it said that you can love somebody and still hurt them, and that’s true, but those actions are not derived from love. Real love shouldn’t hurt.
Ashfur wasn’t perfect before the rejection, either. He wanted to control Squirrelflight from the very beginning. Think back to when Squirrelfight would get into an argument, and Ashfur would tell her to calm down, or how he apologized FOR her like she was a child. He didn’t let her be her own person, or fight her own battles.
And when Squirrelflight rejected him, he immediately pinned the blame on her, if i recall correctly. Blaming the victim is a common manipulation tactic used by abusers.
To be clear, getting upset at a break-up doesn’t make you a bad person. what IS wrong is holding onto a grudge because somebody decided a relationship with you wouldn’t work. Let me make one thing very clear. You do not owe your affection to anyone, nor does anybody owe it to you.
The whole fire deal isn’t even the only horrible thing he did. He tried to kill Firestar, in his first attempt at making Squirrelflight feel pain. He fought Lionblaze with his claws out and did real damage, maybe even trying to kill him then. He possessed Bramblestar, completely taking away his bodily autonomy just because of a breakup he had years before.
Every single one of these was directed at Squirrelflight’s loved ones. He didn’t keep his anger directed at her alone, like a mature adult, instead he tried his best to murder her closest family members. Does that seem like a healthy and sane thing to do? Does that seem like a normal thing to do?
He didn’t even talk to her about it. We know this because in the fire scene, Squirrelflight said she had no idea. Ashfur didn’t even bring it up once, he just let his anger fester into a convoluted murder plot.
Thinking that Ashfur was right or justified in any way is not only wrong, but horribly dangerous. People can choose who they want to be around. You can, and so can any partner you end up with. Move on with your life. Let them live theirs. Don’t justify abuse by calling it love.
Stay safe out there, loves
yeah totally agreed. i’d also like to mention that ashfur literally tried to destroy all the clans, including the afterlife, just cause his crush rejected him
Agreed, but how does thinking that Ashfur was justified dangerous? 😛
because it supports the idea that they (those who believe he was right) could do something like that too. If they believe Ashfur was right, why wouldn’t they do terrible things too just because they think it’s ok?
Any of yall think its a coincdence that the very cat who saved Tiny Branch ended up being killed by his own father, and Tiny Branch later died anyway? Clear Sky’s son was saved by Micah, yet Clear Sky indireclty caused his death and seemed unapolegtic despite Micah saving Tiny Branch. Tiny Branch later died from a fox. Tiny Branch died because Clear Sky killed his own medicine cat and had an unexperienced one. What if Starclan allowed Tiny Branch to die because Clear Sky killed the very cat who saved Tiny Branch? (But we all know Clear Sky is too blame regardless)
Love to hear your thoughts.
Also Starclan has a habit of blaming others and punishing them, like Yellowfang and the Brokenstar issue.
This is very interesting!
I don’t think StarClan would kill an innocent cat, but jnteresting theory!! :3
Hi i will be destroyed for saying this BUT IF YOU ACTUALLY THINK FOR A MINUTE:
Fandom makes Dovey look worse than she actually is and i have no idea whyyyy like yes she could be annoying at times but she pales in comparison of what a jerk Ivypoopyface was 🙁
ANY OTHER DOVEY LOVERS OUT THERE OR IS SHE JUST THAT OVERHHATED??
i also like dovewing!! buut i don’t think ivypool is a jerk :3
I do believe Dovewing is overhated. But I strongly prefer Ivypool; she was only a jerk when she was an apprentice and was being manipulated by the Dark Forest, and she had an entire arc where she developed and became the fierce, slightly sour sister that the fandom loves.
agreed! why can’t ppl like both dove and ivy lol
ME LOVEWING DOVEWING!!
I am neutral on her!! I do like Ivypool, though 🙂
Uhm excuse me Ivypool is slay
I like her, but I like Ivypool more. But she is definitely overhated
I like both Dovewing and Ivypool but I like Dovewing more because of how Ivypool was as an apprentice
She’s . . . fine. She never really was a character whose POV I liked, but I like her more as she got older and after reading Ivypool’s Heart. And, Ivypool wasn’t a jerk! She was jealous of her sister because Dovewing was getting all the attention. From what I remember, Ivypool didn’t know about Dovewing’s powers, so her sister constantly being fussed over and being the center of attention made her feel like she wasn’t ever going to be as good as her sister, leading to her easily being tricked by Hawkfrost.
Since there have been a lot of SquirrelAsh discussions lately, I want to show you a more realistic example of the relationship they would’ve had if they got together, from De Collega’s. So, there is this guy called Gilbert there, and he has a wife Esmeralda. Esmeralda is smarter than him and has a higher diploma than him, which he can’t stand so he controls her, and starts abusing her. He bosses her around, humiliates her in front of other people, and is overall a very toxic husband. When she doesn’t do what he wants, he threatens her, and even though this gets better later, having to deal with this is very, very hard. They eventually have a son, and Edmeralda is so scared at that point she flees from Gilbert and goes to her parents. But Gilbert goes there and convinces her to come back, but he still abuses her after. And Esmeralda is basically trapped in a very unhealthy relationship. This is what would’ve happened to Squirrelflight if she didn’t reject Ashfur. Maybe because Warrior Cats is with cats, we don’t always realize how these things would be in real life, but maybe with this example, more people will realize how toxic Ashfur is and that his behavior is definitely not okay.
You’re 100% right about all of this, though I do think that this is almost the exact description of what Bramble does to Squilf
AshxSquikf IS NOT OK IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORMMMM
I agree! Nobody should be defending Ashfur or his behaviour, nor should anyone be blaming Squirrelflight. It’s really not right to be blaming the victim for the behaviour of the abuser.
Agreed! Ashfur can’t be defended
I agree 100%
Ashfur is abusive, and no one in their right mind should be blaming squilf for rejecting him.
i agree completely.
in my opinion, ashfur was never ‘in love’ with squirrelflight. he wanted her, sure, but love doesn’t invoke insanity; obsession does. i’ve seen so many people say this, and i’m going to reiterate it: ashfur did not love squirrelflight. i’m not sure how people get the foggiest notion that he did. love is not abusive, love will not cause someone to possess bodies and commit arson.
it scares me that people think otherwise and try to justify even the slightest of ashfur’s crimes, because this could damage their instincts in the real world, where unfortunately people like ashfur run amok. crimes of passion are still crimes, and saying it’s because you loved them doesn’t make it right.
ashfur was toxic, abusive, and downright psychotic. if he had ever felt even a glimmer of true affection for squirrelflight, no matter how platonic or romantic it was, he wouldn’t have done any of these things. this makes any ‘he loved her’ arguments unjustifiable.
ashfur and squirrelflight, in my opinion, can almost be viewed as a life lesson, what with the correlations to real-life scenarios (minus the possessing-a-leader bit). i just hope people take it the right way.
^^ beautifully said
TW: domestic violence, reference to real life cases (not specific cases, but the idea of those cases in general)
hi, I’ve seen a lot on here about Ashfur and I wanted to slide in and give my own perspective. I’m currently interning with the Domestic Violence Unit in charge of prosecuting Domestic Violence cases in my area and so I have seen a lot of abuse cases and gotten a lot more insight into both the defendants and their relationships with their victims.
The primary thing driving abuse is anger. It is people getting angry with someone else and instead of regulating that emotion, they turn to violence. Depending on their weapon of choice this can turn deadly. In a lot of cases (entirely based on my experience, not necessarily a fact across all Domestic Violence homicides or 1st/2nd/3rd/HAND cases) the defendants at one point did have some form of love for the victim (or, at least their own version of whatever that may be). In some cases they were married for 30 years and in a bad argument things turned too ugly too fast and it was too late to take any of it back. I don’t want to rule out Ashfur having affection for Squirrelflight. I’d like to argue that you can have affection for someone (or, your idea of someone) and still be capable of causing them harm when you are angry and do not regulate that emotion.
Ashfur “loving” Squirrelflight, though, did not entitle him to be loved back. It did not entitle him to react the way he did. It did not give him permission to hurt her. His “love” (or what started out as love, perhaps) turned into an obsession and that obsession was dangerous. It was fueled by rage at her rejection and rage at the new object of her affections and he wanted to punish her and force her to come back to him or to have no one at all.
Calling their relationship healthy or romanticizing it is dangerous. It is a depiction of real hurt and real pain that so, so many men and women go through every day. As in Squirrelflight’s case, when victims choose to leave their abuser it is the most dangerous time in the relationship because it causes the abuser to truly crack.
Not all relationships begin badly. Not all abusers show their colors at first. In a lot of cases I’ve seen (especially Domestic Homicides) there is true regret from the abusers at the death of their victims or the pain they caused their victims. In others, there is none at all.
Whatever the case is and whether or not we agree on Ashfur’s feelings towards Squirrelflight, I hope we can all come to agree that Ashfur and Squirrelflight’s relationship is not an ideal one, but instead an important depiction of toxic relationships in the real world.
This was very well but Lil, and I completely agree with you on this.
I totally agree! I don’t want to completely rule out Ashfur feeling some sort of affection for Squilf, but he’s still a tocix loser whose actions can never be justified.