Need a break from the hubbub of the rest of the blog? Or perhaps you just want a quiet page to discuss Warriors in depth. In any case, feel free to unwind in the Elders’ Den!
[a very fluffy grey cat with thick fur around its neck, long whiskers, and yellow eyes stares into the camera]
What exactly is this page, then? It’s a place to discuss, in detail, particular aspects of the Warriors series – to pick apart ideas and themes that perhaps either get overlooked elsewhere or require a nuanced perspective. And more broadly, it’s a quiet refuge away from the bustle of the rest of the blog!
If there is a more serious subject you’d like to discuss within the Warriors universe, remember to remain respectful of what people are saying and to handle the topics in question with the necessary care and respect. Does this mean this is a page solely for discussing controversial topics? Of course not, but rather if they appear, the mods ask that everyone involved remain calm and thoughtful – should a discussion verge too far into argument territory, we may step in and put an end to it.
[a ginger-and-white tabby cat squeezes its eyes closed as it licks its pawpad]
If you’re looking for a general place to talk about Warriors but you feel like your comment doesn’t quite fit the Elder’s Den, check out the Sunning Patch!
(MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS FOR ASC)
I hadn’t read any Warriors books for over a year. I finished TBC in July of ’23 and really felt burned out. The death of Bristlefrost had hit me hard, even though I know it was coming, and I was really tired of plots based on the supernatural. I did read Riverstar’s Home when it came out in September ’23—I really liked his character and was eager to learn more about him. But I made a decision not to read ASC until the full series had been published. I tried to avoid spoilers about ASC and mostly succeeded.
When it was announced that Star was going to be released in November of this year, I decided it was finally time to start reading ASC. I found the first three volumes rather slow going. I knew from the beginning that the main plot thread for the series would be the deaths of Mistystar and Reedwisker and the subsequent lack of leadership in RiverClan. But many of the subplots seem to be recycled from previous story arcs: an apprentice is frustrated at failing his assessment; two cats from different clans go on a long patrol and discover a mutual attraction; a young medicine cat apprentice is uncertain about her powers; and finally, a cat named TigerStar takes over River Clan. At least there was no supernatural stuff—no ghost cats or zombie cats, no possession or reincarnation, no Dark Forest warriors—and I was grateful for that.
My interest began to pick up with the attack on Frostpaw at the end of Shadow. There was finally some urgency in the story. I read the remaining books with some eagerness. Frostpaw and Nightheart’s expedition to find the Park Cats was, in some ways a repetition of other quest tales (but all quest tales are alike in some respects). I was pleased to see that the Park Cats still revered the memory of Riverstar and that they still practiced meditation. I pre-ordered Star and read it in the days following the US election (I’m not going to spoil it here). I found Frostpaw, Nightheart, and Sunbeam engaging characters, on the whole. There was, perhaps a bit too much repetition of the whole “will he/she still love me, will he/she come back” stuff in their love story, but that is a minor complaint.
(This is part #1 because the initial comment breached the maximum comment word count.)
I agree that it seems that some of the same old plot are reused in this arc. However, I feel like, for the most part, the authors added a new spin on most of them to make them interesting again.
Nightheart does mirror Bristlefrost in his failing his assessment initially, but I feel like this truly adds to his character and, although he shares this trait with Bristlefrost, he is ultimately distinguished from her- and all other ThunderClan POVs- by his emotional detachment from ThunderClan, and Firestar’s legacy. And with Nightheart and Bristlefrost initially taking such a different path- Nightheart going as far as to leave ThunderClan, and Bristlefrost becoming so loyal to the Clans and the code that she enforces the rules much too strictly- I feel like this is a good plot point that mirrors the two cats, while also emphasizing the differences between them.
As for the other plot points mentioned, I also believe that they are twisted and spun in a unique way that makes them almost brand new. Nightheart seeing a potential foreign anchor from ThunderClan in Sunbeam to attach him somewhere where he could be his own cat, apart from Firestar, was much different from built romances in previous arcs, as it ties Nightheart’s detachment from ThunderClan to his eventual romance with Sunbeam. He doesn’t just do everything he does for Sunbeam: he leaves ThunderClan not just to be with her, but mainly to escape from ThunderClan. He leaves ShadowClan because he now sees that he belongs in ThunderClan, and can live there in a way that suits him. Sunbeam wasn’t his whole life, and Nightheart wasn’t hers- she forges a genuine connection to ThunderClan outside of Nightheart in Thunder. I feel like their romance was well-paced and well-written, and aptly distinguished from previous romances such as Bristlefrost and Rootspring’s.
To be honest, I also thought that Frostpaw’s character had been done many times before with Jayfeather, Shadowsight, and especially Alderheart: a nervous medicine cat, unsure of their abilities. But in Thunder, I feel like this was fixed: after Splashtail attempted to murder her, Frostpaw lost her innocence. As she stated in Wind, she didn’t know who to trust in the state Splashtail left her in: alone, injured, and attacked by a Clanmate, only surviving when Whistlepaw went behind the backs of Harestar and Kestrelflight to help her. This feeling of distrust, confusion, and fear hardened her and made her strong, distinguishing her from previous characters like Alderheart. This is what truly caused me to appreciate her developed character.
(This is part #2 because the initial comment breached the maximum comment word count.)
I also liked Tigerstar taking over RiverClan: it seemed like something he, as an assertive and perhaps overly aggressive leader, would do. And many cats accused him several times of being like the first Tigerstar, and I think that added to his character development this arc. I think that the recurring comparisons between him and Tigerclaw throughout his life were a good plot point, and when he does something so externally comparable to Tigerclaw’s actions, as he did in this arc, he truly doubted himself, which was interesting to see out of him.
And I agree about the rest of the arc after Shadow feeling much more urgent than the rest. The true threat of Splashtail being revealed, especially with the Clans’ distrust of Frostpaw, made it very interesting. And I liked the park cats, and how they continued Riverstar’s legacy and traditions.
However, I think that the pacing in A Starless Clan was actually better than any other arc beforehand. The slow development of the plot in the first half of the arc was actually something I enjoyed, especially because it wasn’t initially obvious who was involved in the deaths of Mistystar and Reedwhisker (or if anyone was involved in the former’s death at all): Lightleap, Splashtail, Curlfeather, Duskfur? And the leadership crisis was interesting. I was genuinely not sure whether or not Icewing, Duskfur, Mothwing, Harelight, or perhaps Frostpaw would assume leadership of RiverClan for a good while. The mystery intrigued me more than the mystery last arc, where it was almost instantly obvious that the ‘imposter’ was Ashfur.
Ultimately, despite its reuse of old plot events, I also loved A Starless Clan, and enjoyed reading about all three of its protagonists.
RIVERSTAR!!!!! He might be my favorite DotC cat.
There are a lot of recycled plots among Warriors, and I agree that there is a lot of supernatural stuff in it, but it is a fantasy series after all.
There is one novel feature in ASC that I failed to mention: the issues resulting from the change in the code allowing cats to switch clans. The arc contrasts the different approaches to creating the tasks for cats who wish to switch clans. In ShadowClan, Berryheart clearly tries to choose tasks that Nightheart will fail, because she doesn’t want him (or any “outsider”) in ShadowClan, let alone as her daughter’s mate. In ThunderClan, in contrast, Ivypool chooses tasks for Sunbeam that will allow her to demonstrate her worthiness and the special qualities that she will bring to the clan.
In your opinion, what are some of the worst queens/mothers in warriors?
I’ll start us off.
spoiler warning for crookedstars promise!!
Rainflower. The mother of Crooked/Stormkit and Oakkit. In what I see, she completely neglects one kit for all of her time as a queen. First Stormkit is everything in her eyes, and Oakkit is just existing, but as soon as Stormkit gets hurt, she completely forgets about him. And, if iirc, she’s the one who chooses the new name for Crookedkit (this might not be correct), simply rubbing salt in the wound. The oakkit becomes her everything.
If im remembering correctly, there was a scene in crookedstar’s promise were Oakkit asks if Crookedkit should sleep in their nest, but Rainflower simply shakes him off and says ‘he’s fine in another nest.’
Rainflower is certainly a contender for the “Worst Mom” title. Curlfeather is pretty bad,
I agree, but Curlfeather did sacrifice herself for her daughter, even though she lied to her.
That still doesn’t make her actions okay. She manipulated Frostpaw for her own personal gain, and she is a bad mother for it. However, I agree that despite her actions, Curlfeather did truly care for Frostpaw.
I think that Curlfeather was a little bad, but I think she may have redeemed herself a little bit because she truly cared for Frost and her other two kits, Gray and Mist, and also, I think that her initial plan to take over the Clan was overshadowed by Splashtails terrible plan. I think that she at least belonged in a place that was in between StarClan and the Dark Forest.
SPOILERS FOR YELLOWFANG’S SECRET!
I agree with you on Rainflower, but Lizardstripe earns a close second. For those who don’t know, Lizardstripe was Brokenstar’s foster mother. When Yellowfang and Raggedpelt both ask Lizardstripe to take care of Brokenkit, she first rages at them for a hot minute before reluctantly taking Brokenkit in.
Even then, she consciously neglected Brokenkit and put his life after the life of her kits. And when Tanglekit, Runningkit, and Deerkit bully Brokenkit over the identity of his mother, Yellowfang has to step in, not Lizardstripe. And I haven’t read Yellowfang’s Secret yet, but I’m pretty sure the kits never got a scolding from their mother, at least not on-screen.
In one of Bright Guardian Akira’s videos, he discusses a theory of Brokenkit possibly being trained in the Dark Forest by Mapleshade. I don’t think this theory is all that far-fetched. If it were to be true, one of the primary factors that Brokenkit resides with Mapleshade would be Lizardstripe, similar to how Crookedkit trains with Mapleshade because of his neglectant mother.
I haven’t read Crookedstar’s Promise, so I’m going to have to say Ivypool, in a way. For starters, it was Fernsong that took care of the kits after they stopped nursing while Ivypool only wanted to go back to her warrior duties. She was a big part her kits’ lives (or the kits were a big part of hers) as the they got older, but she still wasn’t there when they were younger. But Fernsong was the one who wanted kits in the first place. . .
If not her, Curlfeather was pretty bad. She did care for Frostpaw, but she used that love as a way to manipulate and use Frostpaw to get her way.
Yup Rainflower sucks
Rainflower is of course a terrible mother. She seemed to judge her kits based on their looks and only care for them if they looked the way she wanted them to. She was horrible to Crookedstar and I’m not entirely sure why she isn’t in the Dark Forest.
Millie is also a pretty bad mother, in my opinion. She made Briarlight’s treatment after her back injury very stressful for Briarlight herself, and while she was trying her best to help Briarlight, she was only harming her. And she neglected Blossomfall while giving all her attention to Briarlight, as well, which led Blossomfall to accept the Dark Forest training when offered.
Curlfeather is a bad mother as well. While she did care about Frostpaw truly, even sacrificing her life to save Frostpaw’s, she also manipulated Frostpaw into becoming a medicine cat and used Frostpaw’s role in the Clan for her own advantage.
As of reading the first few chapters of The Elders’ Quest, I also don’t think Thriftear is a very good mother. She seems to judge Frostpaw based on her chimerism, and tries to guide her into the position of a medicine cat regardless of her wishes, seeing her special appearance as a sign rather than just a genetic quirk. But I guess I’ll have to wait and see whether or not she’s overly insistent about this.
i think you meant moonpaw, not frostpaw ^^
Also, Tallstar’s mother (I forget her name) who was so wrapped up in grieving for his sister, who died as a kit, that she paid no attention to him at all.
Her name was Palebird! ^^
I agree with you . . . in a way. Palebird and Sandgorse did pay attention to Tallstar, but it was mainly about him becoming a tunneler.
Did she ever neglect Oakkit? Also, Millie
I have a few.
First, Rainflower. She neglected her son because he was disfigured.
Second, Squirrelflight. While she wasn’t nearly as bad as some other cats, she did lie to her mate and her kits.
Third, Nightcloud. She taught her son that he was better than everyone else and that his father was bad out of spite that he didn’t truly love her. While Crowfeather was partially in the wrong there, she still raised her son to think that he deserved whatever he wanted and that he was better than other cats.
Fourth, Lizardstripe. She didn’t want kits in the first place, and didn’t even try to stop Brokenkit’s foster siblings from bullying him. I personally think the way she treated him was part of the reason he turned out evil. If he’d had a mother like Yellowfang, maybe he would have turned out better, and innocent lives would have been spared.
Hmm interesting never saw Nightcloud as a bad mother
i agree that nightcloud wasn’t the best parent but i don’t recall her ever purposefully turning breezepelt against crowfeather ://
MAPLESHADE.
*appears*
Which leg is your least favourite, Holz? 😀🔪
I’ll help, Spiri 😀
Listen to Tough Love- Warrior Cats
Thats my answer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K47KUhBI8fA
This isn’t exactly a popular topic now, but I saw a lot of people sharing their opinions on it, so i’m here to share mine
Mapleshade deserves the Dark Forest.
While it was unfair for her to be exiled because of having a mate in a different clan, what she did was too far. She has every right to be angry at the clans—until she murders THREE cats, and doesn’t feel the least bit of remorse. And while you might say, “she was hallucinating,” well, expecting Featherwish to jump in the water and save your kits is pretty unreasonable, considering she’s a ThunderClan cat, not a RiverClan cat, and probably cant swim.
Also, we see that once Mapleshade goes to the dark forest, she is HAPPY to be there, and gladly mentors apprentices in the Dark Forest, and happily goes along with a plan to DESTROY THE CLANS.
While the beginning of her life might’ve been unfair, Mapleshade’s actions, before and after she died, show that she belongs in the Dark Forest.
I completely agree. I’m not sure how one can see Mapleshade as belonging to StarClan.
Agreed whole heartedly!
Very much agreed! As someone who has only seen her as a Dark Forest cat, she seems pretty happy continuing to be a murderous and evil cat.
MAPLESHADE <333333333
I love her more than anyone can even describe but I do think my poor baby deserves the dark forest 😞😞💔💔
I think StarClan was written badly.
I don’t hate them, but I’m here to complain about the Erins’ way to write the past few arcs. Let me explain:
In the first arc, we don’t see that much of StarClan. Of course, the whole arc is based on a prophecy, and Spottedleaf does visit Firestar frequently, not to speak of Firestar receiving his nine lives, but the plot wasn’t directly connected to StarClan, the Dark Forest, possession, ghosts, or any other supernatural phenomenon. Tigerclaw/star and Scourge were main villains, both utterly real and alive, and once they were dead, they were no longer dangerous. StarClan was deeply respected since they were wise and probably omniscient, and were the basis of the Clans’ religion. Sure, StarClan’s existence was pretty obvious, but not obvious enough for cats like Cloudtail to believe in it. This made the books seem more realistic and imaginable.
I like that.
If we look at later arcs, like Omen Of The Stars (I’m also going to use The Broken Code as reference, even though I haven’t finished it yet), we see a lot more of the StarClan and Dark Forest residents (and the ghosts), to the point where I actually don’t really care as much if a cat dies, since it will still be part of the books as a StarClan cat (I know this isn’t the case in TBC, but I hope you got the point).
In my opinion, StarClan has gone from wise, deeply respected cats to simply dead cats who behave like the living, except they have a little more knowledge (and stars in their fur). In OoTS, for example, StarClan created borders and told the living cats to isolate as much as possible and be very hostile toward other Clans, which was very stupid and unreasonable. And when they finally joined the living cats to fight with them against the Dark Forest, they didn’t do so in a particularly celestial way, and many cats didn’t really seem to have gained any wisdom by being a StarClan cat (such as Raggedstar and Yellowfang). By now, StarClan does no longer act like the wise and God-like cats they once were in my opinion.
Other than that, I think the whole concept of supernatural plot points getting both more frequent and more important is unnecessary. A main plot point in the first half of TBC is Ashfur possessing Bramblestar, which is obviously very unrealistic and very different from anything that would have happened in the first arc. In The New Prophecy, we got introduced to the Dark Forest and the concept of there being more than one residence for dead cats, but it’s just gone way too far in my opinion, and in TBC, almost all of the main plot points are related to supernatural things like ghosts and spirits possessing living cats, compared to pretty much none of the main plot points in TPB. I personally prefer the way it was in the first arc; simple and realistic, and StarClan being (mostly) spiritual and mystical rather than actual cats walking the earth and fighting one another. The main characters have become too overpowered (such as the Three having superpowers and Rootspring being able to see ghosts) and the plots have become too unrealistic and weird to be, at some points, by any means relatable and imaginable.
To summarize this very long rant, I miss the way StarClan was seen in the first arc and the role it played during the time of Firestar’s POV. I also miss the concept of realistic plot points and characters.
Now, I know this is a fantasy series obviously, and it’s not meant to be realistic at all, and of course this is only my opinion and I respect anyone who disagrees with me. I just think the amount of supernatural events and plot points has gotten a bit too much.
I’ll wrap this up now, Jackdaw out!! :3
I agree, Jackdawpaw. StarClan being more mysterious in the first arc was better and made them seem like the omniscient, supernatural beings they’ve always been presented as, instead of a goofy collection of biased old cats who literally commit entrapment.
The supernatural aspect of The Broken Code felt weird after a while, and even to this day it’s not clear how all of the afterlife logic in that arc worked. And the involvement of StarClan cats in the main series made deaths feel less important, because the cat would just appear in StarClan or the Dark Forest.
I agree with most of that. I much prefer the books that focus on living cats doing the things that living cats can do. I think the authors initially introduced the Dark Forest because they wanted to keep Tigerstar I in play as a villain after his death. They changed the nature of the Dark Forest as the series went on. In the beginning, each cat in the DF was isolated and there was no interaction among them. Then they changed that because they wanted to enable the DF cats to be able to organize to make war against the living cats.
As you said, I think the plot element in OotS, of having StarClan divide into territories and encourage the living cats to divide rather than unite was stupid. It was just done so Jayfeather could have the task of reversing it.
As I said elsewhere, I was pleased that ASC had none of the supernatural stuff that the previous arcs did. StarClan only appears in visions, and that’s mostly in the person of Riverstar, a character I love.
I agree. I got A Light in the Mist from the library and flipped through it, reading a few pages, and it seemed like EVERYTHING in the book took place in the Dark Forest. Warriors is getting way too unreal. In TPB, I could actually imagine it happening. But now everything is really weird and there are too many ghosts and spirits. And (slightly unrelated) how did the Twolegs not notice any of the battles? Especially the one in The Last Hope. I think it said that the territory was slowly turning into the Dark Forest, and SERIOUSLY HOW DID NO TWOLEGS NOTICE? The end. Goodbye. Cinderpelt is amazing.
My impression is that twolegs rarely go into the parts of the territory where the clans’ camps are or into their hunting grounds—if they did, it would be a big problem for the clans. The twolegs mostly stick to the horse place and the camping area, or go boating on the lake.
Do you think Mapleshade’s actions were justified?
No and no and no, killing is never justified (maybe if the person ur killing has killed). Punishment? Yes. But killing? Nope!
no, not at all.
naur
I just watched Bright Guardian Akir’a video about Mapleshade yesterday for the 4th time. Weird coincidence. No, her actions were not before the killing. She was selfish, thinking being in a half clan relationship was totally okay and being upset she had to keep it a secret. She also thought it was perfect to use the murder victim of her secret mate as a way to hide the identity of him. That’s right. Appledusk’s murder victim. (Accidental but still) Let the whole Appledusk Birchface thing sink in and how Mapleshade used it for her own personal gain.
i wrote a whole article on this lol. NO FRICKIN WAY
Not in any way. Appledusk, Frecklewish, and Ravenwing did not deserve to be murdered. I don’t see any way that she can be justified, as she murdered three innocent cats, got her kits killed, and tried to murder a pregnant queen. She is a terrible cat and belongs in the Dark Forest.
No for more reasons than one
Nope, and if anyone thinks they were, that deeply worries me
fr…
No – It was her fault the kits died, from what I can tell.
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
No.
Absolutely not, Ravenwing, Frecklewish and Reedshine (because let’s not forget she tried to kill her instead of Appledusk, which also wasn’t justified, but it wouldn’t be as unreasonable as Reedshine) were all innocent cats who made mistakes but didn’t deserve anything they got
Nooooooooooooooooooo
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
I actually wrote an article on this, because I was disturbed by the fact that so many people think they are
*spawns*
*takes deep breath*
I will try not to get into deep depth because I wrote a massive article (not massive) on this last year but as you know I love Mapleshade TO THE DEATH so I have to say something, yknow, but no her actions were not justified, I do not agree with what she did at all, but I have to support her in some way since she’s my amazing little purrfect kitty all time favourite character who rules the world, I love her and think next time she should just be a little gentler with the itty bitty kitties 😊🥰
i really don’t get you sometimes, spiri 😛 /lh
agreed 😊
Is Fernshade a canon name? I think I heard it somewhere-
yep!
https://warriors.fandom.com/wiki/Fernshade
👆
Yep, she’s a queen in Yellowfang’s Secret. Iirc she’s Wolfstep’s mate and Badgerfang’s mom
I think so!
How to Make a Delicious Ashfur Sundae:
1. Find “Very Sensitive Cat” bowl
2. Place “Dead Brindleface” and “Dead Littermates” and “Dead Whitestorm” Flavored Ice Cream inside.
3. Drizzle with “Your Crush Rejects You”
4. Sprinkle in some “Your Sister Married Your Mentor” and “Your Actual Mentor is Darkstripe” and “Your Kittypet Brother was Made a Warrior Before You.”
5. Add a dollop of “You Have Zero Friends”
6. For the toppings? “You Have Zero Mental Help Support System”
7. Shove the entire mess down your throat
8. Try to gag it out
9. Too bad, because “You have Zero Mental Help Support System” is blocking your throat.
Isn’t that a glorious recipe for…
DISASTER?
And yet this entire fandom still hates him. He’s the victim here, ya know? He’s just an innocent little cinnamon roll anti-Graystripe revolutionary who the authors hated way too much and decided to make him a villain. Although then again all decent villains are innocent little cinnamon rolls. Why do you think my faves are all villains? And even the few who aren’t villains have very good reasons to become villains!
Also, a bit off topic, how dare you treat my little Snaptooth like that? He was the only one who figured out that Firestar’s family was monpolizing the important positions! Is that fair? No! If a character wants to be important, better be related to fire or tiger, or you have no chance! What a great message to send to kids. You can only do important stuff if you have important relatives. But of course Snaptooth’s clear-headedness bothered Erin Hunter a little bit, so they made him a kittypet even though he had not shown any signs of kittypetness before. Justice for Snaptooth! And Ashfur…
“Every villain is just a victim whose story has never been told.”
– Chris Colfer through the Evil Queen, the Land of Stories
I agree with you about one point there: the clans have no way of dealing with mental health issues. There are medicine cats to treat physical illnesses, but there are no therapist cats. We’ve seen the bad consequences of this again and again.
Hm, I’ve never thought about it that way, but I agree.
(moddos feel free to trim out any parts you deem confrontational or unnecessarily rude)
I’m genuinely wondering if you’re serious or not because calling Ashfur a ‘cinnamon roll’ is some of the most absurd gobbledygook I’ve heard in a while, and I just got out of a philosophy lecture.
Ok sure, pre-Squirrelflight Ashfur wasn’t doing too well and it’s understandable that he might have some problems grappling with the losses he’s suffered. But saying that he doesn’t have a support system is plainly untrue. ThunderClan is his support system. He could’ve easily asked his fellow clanmates for some love and a shoulder to cry into and they would’ve gladly embraced him.
And besides, like I’ve said, countless other warriors have suffered the same if not worse than Ashfur. It sounds callous but that’s just how the world works when you have these groups of violent and volatile cats right next to each other in the wild. Cats will die. Bluestar lost her sister, her mother, and half of her clan to a famine and still pressed on. Crookedstar suffered a debilitating injury, was shunned by his clan and mother, and lost basically his entire family and still was probably one of if not the best leader RiverClan has ever seen.
Justifying all that Ashfur did just by throwing out some drivel about how he was this poor, unfortunate soul who deserves endless pity simply doesn’t make any sense. This guy literally threatened to kill kits! He was willing to murder countless cats simply because he got rejected. Does that sound normal to you? It shouldn’t
tldr; Ashfur is far from some cinnamon roll and thinking so is quite concerning
I agree with everything Vert says 👆
No, of course it doesn’t sound normal. But this is a literal book!!!! Sure, you can argue that I’m obsessing way too much over Ashfur, but that’s only because he’s the only believable villain with a believable motive in the long line of motiveless one-dimensional villains that is warrior cats.
He killed people in a book! In a book! And as an aspiring writer, I can tell you, if writers were charged for the number of characters they kill off, I would be in jail for the rest of my life.
Ashfur is just an extension of Erin Hunter. Just like every other character. A character’s sole purpose is to carry out the plot, and once that purpose is fulfilled, they will die. Ashfur is a plot device, just like EVERY character EVER.
Only, he’s a plot device with a motive. This makes him, in my opinion, way more interesting than other plot devices, and so more useful to keep around.
Does that sound like a very cruel way to treat characters? I’m sorry, but it is what it is
He had a motive, but he still wasn’t justified.
Sometimes one must suspend disbelief to view events in a story like Warriors as if they had occurred in real life. That is the core of what makes fantasy stories like Warriors fun to read for many people.
Yes
I can kinda see what you’re talking about but calling him a ‘cinnamon roll’ still doesn’t make a lick of sense. Sure, he’s got a tragic backstory—so do about half the cats in Warriors. The difference is that most of them don’t try to burn down the entire forest when life doesn’t go their way. If tragedy alone justified villainy, the Clans would have no heroes, just a bunch of traumatized arsonists.
Ashfur’s “believable motive” is… what exactly? His “love? That’s certainly not unique; it’s one of the most cliche plots in Warriors. What sets him apart is that he weaponizes his feelings in ways that make even the darkest villains in the series seem reasonable. Threatening to kill kits, betraying his entire Clan, and trying to send literal children to the Dark Forest because his ex moved on. That’s not cinnamon roll behavior (and you acknowledge this by saying that he IS a villain but claim that he’s also somehow an innocent little cinnamon roll???)
He’s not this tragic anti-hero that you’re trying to make him out to be. He’s just a spiteful, weak excuse for a tom.
And I simply don’t understand your contentions about him being just a plot device. Sure, yeah you can paint him that way but then I can just say that EVERY villain in literature ever is completely without fault because they’re just fictional. Do you see how this doesn’t make much sense? By this logic I can say, oh yeah Thistleclaw was a child-grooming predator but hey! He’s a plot device, so it’s completely fine.
I can’t completely agree with you. Of course characters in a work of fiction are the creations of the author and behave as the author chooses. But plot is not necessarily all and the characters mere ciphers. There are plot driven stories and there are character driven stories. In the Warriors oeuvre, the main arcs tend to be more plot driven, whereas the SEs and novellas are more character driven. A plot driven story still must have interesting, engaging characters if it is to succeed. The reader must find the characters believable in the context in which they appear and must make an emotional connection with them.
1. Ashfur was incredibly sensitive. Being sensitive isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but it doesn’t give any cat the right to do any of the things Ashfur did. He caused the deaths of thirteen innocent cats. There is absolutely no justification for that.
2. Again, not an excuse for anything Ashfur did. He might’ve been grieving, but that does not give him the justification or right to do anything he did.
3. Squirrelflight had every reason and right to reject him. This is absolutely not a justification for anything he did after this point.
4. I don’t see how Ferncloud and Dustpelt’s relationship can be seen as an excuse or, honestly, even an explanation for Ashfur’s behavior. He was also not mentored by Darkstripe in any form. I can see why Cloudtail becoming a warrior before him when he was perhaps even less prepared than Ashpaw would’ve upset him, but again, that’s not an excuse for his behavior.
5. This is blatantly false. Ashfur was shown to have an at least healthy relationship with most cats in the Clan, and it is implied that he and Thornclaw were close.
6. As WhiteWhiskers said, it would be for the better if the Clans had some sort of mental health system, as a lack of mental health support can cause bad problems to become worse. But this is also not an excuse for Ashfur’s behavior in any way. He had a somewhat difficult early life, but that is not a justification for the cats he killed, or the things he did.
While Ashfur was not given the best deal in life, he handled this poorly and went down a path he should not have gone down. His struggles in life are an explanation for his behavior, not an excuse. We know why he was the way he was, but no good cat would make the choices he made. Ashfur is a terrible cat, and his past is not an excuse for this.
He is also not a cinnamon roll; he was a sensitive, murderous cat who wore a mask of friendliness and positivity when he was getting his way (i.e. when Squirrelflight showed interest in him) until that stopped, as shown when he helped Hawkfrost take one of Firestar’s lives soon after Squirrelflight rejected him.
He did not a good reason to become a villain. He did not have the right or reason to kill the cats he did or make the choices he did at any point.
Blaming the authors for making a cat a villain shows a clear misunderstanding of how stories work.
where do I begin to read this-
oh no. I am an aspiring writer myself. And this is what I have learned:
1. The plot rules all.
2. Characters will die if the plot is forwarded
3. Characters do not matter
4. I will sacrifice the lives of every single one of these characters if it means the plot is moved forward.
Okay, so if Ashfur killed these cats in real life, I would hate him, just like any other sane person would. But! Ashfur killed fictional cats just as nonexistent as he is.
With this attitude to characters, I no longer prefer characters for their interesting personality, or kindness, or sarcasm. I prefer them for one thing and one thing alone. Character development.
And it just so happens and Ashfur has plenty of this. He goes from innocent Ashkit to traumatic Ashpaw to murderous Ashfur. All with believable scenarios. Squirrelflight has none of this. So, go ahead, murder Squirrelflight, she is a waste of space with zero character development.
All of these cats he killed/attempted to kill are just words on a page. Now if he had killed Brokenstar (a decent motive), I would have more of a problem with it.
So, to summarize, these characters do not matter whatsoever UNLESS they’re one of the lucky ones who got lots of character development. Also, don’t yell at me about not knowing how to write. I may be terrible at everything else, but writing is the one thing I can do.
Sometimes you have to make dead cats, and so throw them a pity party and then proceed to murder their cousin.
I didn’t mean to upset you, demean your ability to write, or ‘yell’ at you, and I’m sorry if it came off that way ^^
We clearly have two very different definitions and perceptions of fictional characters. I don’t think either one of us is right or wrong, so I’m not going to continue this argument any longer.
okie, agreed.
3. Characters do not matter
I disagree 100%. If, when I first read Into the WIld, I had not come to care about the fates of Firepaw/heart, Graystripe, Bluestar, and others, I would have never picked up a second book. It is, IMO, a sign of the story’s success that the reader becomes engaged with the characters. Of course, that doesn’t mean that characters don’t die or get killed, only that their deaths have to make sense in the context of the story, such as the heroic death of Bluestar.
I do not harbor any hatred towards Ashfur. In fact, I appreciate him as a villain because he tends to be very tragic and emotionally charged in a way most protagonists aren’t. I just will not excuse his actions. Ashfur may have been a victim in the beginning, but in the end he chose to be a perpetrator. Again you can feel sorry for the lot someone was dealt with in life but if they are actively hurting people around you, or even you, yourself, then you should not be using that to justify their actions. You should NOT pity them.
1. Ashfur was sensitive cat but that doesn’t give him the right to murder. I’m a very sensitive person myself, I bruise and damage as easily as anyone else. I know what Ashfur means when he talks how everyone failed to see the blood. But I don’t choose murder. I choose to work on myself. I choose to be a good person. Sensitivity shouldn’t be used as an excuse to ruin the lives of others.
2. That just makes what he did worse. He knows what its like to loose a loved one. That should’ve made him a wiser more understanding cat. But instead he thinks his outrage at Squirrelstar’s rejection is more important then the lives of others, even causes several cats to loose their own loved ones, despite what happened to him. There is no justification for that.
3. Ashfur had options. He could’ve chosen to be in her life as a friend, he could’ve paused to reflect and grow, he could’ve found someone else who would’ve made him happy. He did not need to completely threaten the Clans, conspire to kill Firestar, involve the three or do any of the things he did. And for the record, he doesn’t own Squirrelflight. She is her own cat. If she doesn’t want to be with Ashfur she’s within her rights to make that choice. When you love someone you understand that they are their own person and give them room to be their own person. You don’t become possessive over them.
4. I don’t think that has anything to do with his actions in TBC, and again, that doesn’t justify his actions
5. As others have said, he seemed to have a healthy relationship with most cats in ThunderClan, and even if he didn’t they would’ve been ready to support him. He could’ve chosen to reach out to them.
6. Agreed. Clan cats don’t appear to have a mental health support system, but even so, there are cats with similar trauma to Ashfur who don’t endanger the lives of innocent cats. Not a valid excuse.
Again, Ashfur may have been a victim in the beginning but ultimately he chose to be a perpetrator. Calling him a victim and innocent is kinda wrong and completely undermines the innocent cats that he victimized. Ashfur may have thrown his own pity party and thought he was a victim but he was not.
I understand. But once again, I’m not defending real life serial killers. I am defending a non-existent cat who killed other non-existent cats. When you are a character, the interestingness (if that’s a word) of you determines the worth of your life, because characters are just plot devices. A more interesting plot device is just worth more, at least to the author. And to me, Ashfur is a VERY interesting plot device. Even you agreed. In my opinion, a lot more interesting than Squirrelflight or any of the others.
So, this is like charging you for murder because you stepped on an ant pile. Ashfur’s life is just worth more, at least to me (and there’s a lot of different interpretation on who is more interesting, this is mine) so it is perfectly okay for him to murder NONEXISTENT cats. Key word is nonexistent. Believe me I would not be doing this if warriors was real.
Ashfur is definitely not the victim here. Squirrelflight had every right to reject him, Ashfur is not entitled to her love and the fact that he tried to kill her own father and adoptive kits shows that he isn’t an “innocent cinnamon roll”.
Do you find it troubling that he went to such lengths to take revenge on a cat simply for rejecting him? To me, it is very concerning.
No, DustxFern, his past, and co. should not be an excuse for Ashfur’s poor decisions. I understand that losing his mother and father early on may have caused him to want to cling onto someone to care about, but overall any of these factors do not make Ashfur’s choices for him.
It is Ashfur himself who decided to do that. These may have had some impact on Ashfur’s decisions, but they are minimal.
Ashfur isn’t a victim, nor is he an innocent cinnamon roll. He didn’t necessarily have good reason to become what he became. Is a tragic past and rejection a good excuse to attempt to murder innocent cats?
Overall, I strongly disagree and I believe that Ashfur is in no way an innocent cinnamon roll and he has no excuse for what he did.
Hear me out here. These are fictional cats whose lives are a stroke of a key away. They are all plot devices.
If we look at them through the viewpoint of plot devices, we no longer see them as equal cats, but rather in a pyramid-like structure with the more interesting cats at the top.
To me, at the very least, Ashfur is one of the if not THE most interesting cat in the series, so hating him because he killed cats is like hating a human being for stepping on an ant pile at five years old.
Would I do this in real life? Of course not. But these are FICTIONAL cats with an emphasis on fictional, which means their life is worth nothing if their entertainment value is worth nothing.
So, I love Ashfur!
Then say you like Ashfur as a villain. And I completely understand! As a villain, he’s great. But he is in no way an innocent cinnamon roll.
You’re completely entitled to loving characters if you acknowledge their deeds. I love Mapleshade as a villain, but I would never defend her reprehensible crimes.
I second this
That’s an interesting way of seeing it, yet I still don’t believe Ashfur’s actions are justified.
Is Mistfeather a cannon name? I heard Jacki and Cheeso say it was and now i’m worried because I have a cannon name 😅
Mistfeather is a mangy, ragged, and skinny gray tom with amber eyes. Mistfeather was a SkyClan warrior under Leafstar’s leadership in the gorge. When Darktail and his rogues invaded SkyClan’s camp, Mistfeather’s mate was killed, and he was separated from the rest of his Clan and became a loner. (Warriors Wiki)
Yeah, Mistfeather was a SkyClan cat in Hawkwings Journey!
Yes. Is there a rule against having a canon name?
https://warriors.fandom.com/wiki/Mistfeather
The search function on the Warriors Wiki is a great way to answer questions like this.
No, there isn’t, but it’s normally avioded.
I can’t go on the warriors wiki, it’s blocked for some reason, which is why I didn’t know.
yes, it was a cat from Skyclan’s name. https://warriors.fandom.com/wiki/Mistfeather
if you like the name for yourself though, I don’t think it’s much of a problem for you to use it :3
Yep! :3 Mistfeather was a SkyClan warrior. He appears in The Apprentice’s Quest (first book of AVoS). He tells Alderheart that Darktail’s gang is not the real SkyClan, and then Darktail appears and kills him 😛
That said, I really don’t think you should change your name if you like it!! Mistfeather is a minor character and no one really cares about him anyway, and you make a great Mizzie, though it’s your choice, of course!! :3
Yes. Mistfeather was a SkyClan cat who appeared in A Vision of Shadows and Hawkwing’s Journey. He was killed by Darktail after he gave Alderheart’s patrol the idea that Darktail’s cats weren’t SkyClan.
Mistfeather has been canon for a long time! You can find their wiki page here:
https://warriors.fandom.com/wiki/Mistfeather
Yeah, I think it is. Correct me if I’m wrong, but he was the cat Alderpaw, Needlepaw, and Sparkpaw met when they were trying to find SkyClan In AVoS. But he wasn’t there long as he was murdered by Darktail soon after speaking with the Clan cats.
This is probably really random after the big Ashfur rants going on but not entirely new at all. Mapleshade. I know a LOTS of people are probably tired of the discussions and almost everybody got into a conclusion that “No! Mapleshade’s actions are not justifiable!” which I support cuz it’s true! But something my friend Glowpaw (mapleshade fan) said yesterday about Mom Mapleshade caught me off-guard.
You might say that Mapleshade is a bad mom and all but hear me out. Glowpaw recently lost a kitten named Misty as some of my Hug Page friends might remember and yesterday she was with her new cat and was texting me how her new cat kept cuddling and licking her and I said that her cat loves her so much as a mother.
There was a bit of a pause and she asked if I finally know why she likes Mapleshade so much and I said no cuz I think she is horrible. And she said it was because she knows how it feel like to lose a kit. This got me thinking…
Does Mapleshade really love her kits enough to get mad for them? Does she really love them so much that she would avenge them by risking her life? All those other descriptions in the book tells us how much she does sooo idk. Is Mapleshade a wonderful mother that would do anything even if it meant killing cats and whole families? If she is a good mother, does she really deserve all this hate? What do u guys think?
MOM MAPLESHADE? ILY 😭😭
Mapleshade is an amazing mother who did awful things I don’t know how to feel about this because I have burning love for this cat and when my mixed emotions try to kick in I HEEYAWH kick him out 🤷♀️🤷♀️
I’d say she was a very loving and caring mom, but she was irresponsible, making them use the stones to cross the river. That irresponsibility brings me to the conclusion that, while she truly loved her kits, she is not the best mother.
I think that while her murder was not justifiable and she definitely deserved the Dark Forest, I also believe she truly loved her kits.
I don’t think she was in the right mind when she crossed the river leading to their death. She had just received the shock of exile from her Clan and also was yelled at by Frecklewish, a cat who had previously praised her and her kits but now called them half-clan creatures.
Then, when Mapleshade fled after being refused a place in RiverClan, she began to have hallucinations of her kits, urging her to commit murder. This shows her obsession over her kits’ deaths, while also her tendency to put the blame on someone else other than her own. And that’s where her major flaw is. No matter how much she genuinely loves her kits, she will always blame someone else if something negative happens to them.
Is there anyone else here who doesn’t like Crowfeather? Because I don’t and I have some pretty valid reasons why.
1: The way he treated cats he loved.
He treated Leafpool like some pretty bad mouse-dung. Throughout their relationship it was either “I hate you” or “Lets be mates”, even with his growing crush, he didn’t treat her right. ! Also, Leafpool’s mentor died, and she was heartbroken, but all Crowfeather really cared about was how she left and how he felt. And then using Nightcloud as a way to prove his loyalty? Did she know she was being used in this way? He also shows no interest in being a father to Breezepelt. So basically as soon as he leaves Leafpool he goes onto Nightcloud without truly loving her, has kits, two of them die, which must’ve devastated Nightcloud, and then leaves. Nightcloud’s relationship with him only existed for his personal gain. Personally, I don’t think he did any wrong things to Feathertail, but all the other cats in his life he treated with disrespect.
2: He is constantly only caring about himself
Crowfeather can be really selfish sometimes. He went through a lot when Leafpool left, but he didn’t really ever consider how others felt. Here are my examples:
A) When he is in love with Leafpool, and asks her to join him, he is pressuring and doesn’t consider how much this will affect her life in ThunderClan.
B) He treats Leafpool terribly again for leaving to go back to her clan, but she didn’t have much of a choice! 1, Crowfeather was from a different clan which was breaking the code, 2, She was a MEDICINE CAT who couldn’t have mates which is breaking the code again, and 3, she had to be there for her clan since they were kind’ve in mayhem with a family of badgers attacking their camp. Leafpool should not be blamed for this!
C) He never cared about his son’s life. It’s fair to say that he didn’t want kits with Nightcloud, but it wasn’t Breezekit’s fault he was born or that his siblings died. All he wanted was to know his dad. Night and Crow were constantly fighting in front of him, which can cause a lot of problems and trauma for a kit at young age. But Crowfeather never thought about how Breezepelt felt, did he? Lionblaze and Hollyleaf even FELT BAD for Breezepelt, a cat they hate, because Crowfeather was his father.
3. He barely interacts with ANYONE
Okay, there’s nothing wrong with being an introvert. But Crowfeather is sometimes too grouchy with others. he has a lack of respect to higher roles, and he didn’t even talk to his own son or comfort Nightcloud when two of her kits died, which is confusing because he should understand how it felt since all his siblings died.
Anyways I’d like to debate with anyone
i agree that he wasn’t the best cat, but i like him because i find that he’s a really complex and unique character whose story is very interesting to read about.
Yum! Let’s do this! *SPOILERS FOR CROWFEATHER’S TRIAL*
I haven’t read Twilight but I think he did love the cats he loved. Even after several moons past he has a bond that never truely faded with Feathertail as u can see in Crowfeather’s trial. I don’t think that he treats Leafpool bad and is very sweet with her before they broke up and he probably just wants to not have something bad happen due to his prior experiance with Feathertail (but I am pretty weak at LeafXCrow so nvm) I do think though, it’s pretty cruel how he used Nightcloud but at least he feels regretful and keeps trying.
Now the thing that lots of people forget about. Crowfeather does not treat Leafpool terribly ABOUT her going back. He in case is proud that Leafpool is so loyal to her clan but just wishes she can show as just some loyalty to him, too. Yes, he is very rude to her but I mostly think that’s because in Leafpool’s Wish, Leafpool snaps at him and tells that everything ruined because of him.
Now he’s too grouchy with a lot of people but that’s just him. Some people are like that and we can’t do anything about. I like as a matter of fact how he disrespects higher roles such as (big example here)
✨Onestar✨ and does what he thinks is fair and not just nod his head and follow whatever people say because they are in a “higher status”. More about his personality is what Feathertail taught us. We gotta see and respect what’s in his mind instead of reacting to it with another negetive mindset.
The rest of this as I can see is about the Breezepelt and Nightcloud issue. Yes he is an idiot on that and I hated on him for a long time since Outcast for that and I had a lot of ur reasons that supports that very well. But after I read Crowfeather’s Trial a lot changed. That regret he feels, the pain, the affection all those feeling wrapped into one is what makes me like him. How he said sorry to Nightcloud and Leafpool, how he stood up till the end for Breezepelt, how he put the good of his clan first before Onestar’s words (even tho that meant asking for Bramblestar’s help), and especially saying sorry to Lionblaze and Jayfeather even when they treated him like mouse dung tells me a lot about him. No, he’s probably the worst cat in the books, probably worser than Mapleshade who loved her kits from the start (maybe a bit too much/j) but he will always be my baby for how stupid, grumpy, full of flaws he is.
PS: CT is a must read book even if u despise Crowfeather, read it for Jayfeather
Feel free to debate!
Crowfeather is my favorite character and I heavily disagree.
1: I don’t think he treated Leafpool badly. Sure, he used Nightcloud, but Nightcloud used him as well. Their relationship was unhealthy on both sides, and it’s unfair to blame it all on Crowfeather.
2: A) he loved her, and he knew she loved him, and he probably thought she’d do anything to be with him with just some encouragement – he was wrong, but I don’t think this is a sign of selfishness, cause keep in kind, Leafpool loved him too and it was her choice, so again, we can’t blame it all on Crowfeather.
B) Well, yes, he treated everyone horribly after this. Acting like this toward Leafpool especially was necessary to assure his Clanmates he had no feelings left for her. He had to do anything he could to regain their trust, and acting friendly toward the very cat he ran away with wouldn’t be the best way to do so.
C) Well, you’re right here. He was a terrible father to Breezepelt.
3: I simply don’t think this is a problem. He’s a great warrior who performs his duties as deputy. Sure, he’s grumpy, but so is Jayfeather, and no one blames him. With everything he’s been through, I think being grumpy is justified, considering he’s still a great warrior and not a murdering maniac *lookin’ at you, Maplegirl*
👆
1. I cannot tell you how much I agree. He definitely overreacted when Leafpool left to help ThunderClan and he never let it go. Even after they broke up he ignored her. Even at the gathering several moons later when Hollyleaf reveals that he is their father he rejects that and calls Leafpool a liar because he was stuck up in his own pride rather than thinking about the consequences of his actions.
However, it was a totally different story with Nightcloud. He used her to make himself a more respected warrior, but she also used him to have kits. They were both using each other and neither cat really loved the other, so when the truth was spilled that Crowfeather was the father of Leafpool’s kits I honestly think Nightcloud was overreacting about it.
2. Again, I agree that he was mouse-brained and obviously wasn’t thinking about his choices, especially his choice to run away with the medicine cat of another Clan. He didn’t have much to be mad at Leafpool for, as her entire Clan and her close family was in a life-or-death situation and she had to go help them. Also, if she didn’t return, ThunderClan wouldn’t have a medicine cat. She had to leave for the good of the cats she loved, but Crowfeather was too caught up in his own minor problems to think about what Leafpool wanted or needed.
But this was a totally different story for Breezepelt. First of all, Breezepelt was Nightcloud’s whole world and he had everything he needed to grow up besides the father figure. I understand how it would be difficult for a kit to understand why his father didn’t want him, but he kept that grudge as he grew up, and it was that grudge that made him a terrible cat. For one I don’t think it was all Crowfeather’s fault that Breezepelt joined the Dark Forest. Breezepelt joined and he didn’t just go there to “learn better fighting skills” like other cats thought they were, he went there to get revenge. He just had all that hate and instead of telling it to someone, like Crowfeather, he just started taking it out on everyone else. Like, no cat in their right mind would go up to an expecting queen and a blind medicine cat and just attack them. He was a terrible cat, and I don’t think his actions were okay, not even if he was mad at Crowfeather.
3. Yeah, I agree.
(How did this take me a half hour to write?)
Looking for an apprentice
Hello! If you want to look for an apprentice, the allegiances chat page is the ideal page to do so! You’ll get swarmed, there’s a big mentor shortage lol :PP Btw, I’m not at all mad at you, there’s lots of pages on the Blog and especially if you’re new, it can be hard to keep them apart
Found a new breakthrough in the Robingwing-Fuzzypelt-Patchpelt love triangle.
Fuzzypelt moved into the elders den when Brindlekit and Frostkit (his daughters) became apprentices. In Spottedleaf’s Heart, he is not yet an elder but Brindlepaw and Frostpaw were kits and not yet apprentices, so he had not yet decided to move into it. However, around the time Brindlepaw and Frostpaw should be apprentices, which is when their father retired (because Spottedpaw was one and she grew up with the two she-cars) Spottedpaw says Bluefur and Thrushpelt were not openly affectionate like Halftail and White-eye or Robingwing and Patchpelt were. So Robingwing became mates with Patchpelt when Fuzzypelt moved into the elders den, yet she and Fuzzypelt had another litter afterwards. Bright Guardian Akira or Moonkitti should make a video on this.
My guess on what happened with Patchpelt, Robinwing, and Fuzzypelt is that Robinwing and Fuzzypelt had a fight, and broke up. To get back at Fuzzypelt, Robinwing became mates with Patchpelt and had kits with him. But t Robinwing and Patchpelt’s relationship wasn’t built on anything that could’ve lasted, so they broke up. Then Robinwing realized that she still loved Fuzzypelt and became mates with him again.
Makes sense Mallowpaw, considering that Patchpelt was Fuzzypelt’s apprentice.
I meant to say cats….cars….*dunks head on table*
vroom vroom
I know, ASC used to be pretty boring at first, but it became a whole lot interesting in Thunder. I personally love the Nightheart and Sunbeam ship tho.
SPOILER WARNING
Me too! ASC isn’t the best to read but I like that the Erins continued the series to allow the generations to keep going. Nightheart and Sunbeam are a sweet couple because they positively influenced each other, and no, Nightheart leaving doesn’t count. Starclan dumped him with that prophecy thing. Sunbeam stood up for him, Thunderclan, and herself to her nitpicky mom Berryheart. Nightheart took comfort in her and although he was willing to leave her for Thunderclan, it’s because Nightheart loves his family. (SPOILER COMING UP) Sunbeam and Nightheart are now expecting a litter of kits, one of which is named Goldenkit. (The prefix of my title name and OC name!!!!)