The Elders’ Den

Need a break from the hubbub of the rest of the blog? Or perhaps you just want a quiet page to discuss Warriors in depth. In any case, feel free to unwind in the Elders’ Den!

a long-furred grey cat with yellow eyes sits, staring at the camera

[a very fluffy grey cat with thick fur around its neck, long whiskers, and yellow eyes stares into the camera]

What exactly is this page, then? It’s a place to discuss, in detail, particular aspects of the Warriors series – to pick apart ideas and themes that perhaps either get overlooked elsewhere or require a nuanced perspective. And more broadly, it’s a quiet refuge away from the bustle of the rest of the blog!

If there is a more serious subject you’d like to discuss within the Warriors universe, remember to remain respectful of what people are saying and to handle the topics in question with the necessary care and respect. Does this mean this is a page solely for discussing controversial topics? Of course not, but rather if they appear, the mods ask that everyone involved remain calm and thoughtful – should a discussion verge too far into argument territory, we may step in and put an end to it.

an orange and white tabby cat lies in front of a teal background. it is licking its paw

[a ginger-and-white tabby cat squeezes its eyes closed as it licks its pawpad]

If you’re looking for a general place to talk about Warriors but you feel like your comment doesn’t quite fit the Elder’s Den, check out the Sunning Patch!

4,169 comments

  • What do you all think about the way mental health is dealt with in the books? With Bluestar, she went crazy and started a “war on StarClan.” She was ridiculed, even by her own Clanmates!
    And with Hollyleaf, well… she flipping murdered somebody due to HER PTSD and trauma, and then just ran away.
    And with Mapleshade, who had hallucinations about her dead children who were telling her to kill some other cats.
    Idk I just feel like mental health is always dealt with in a bad light. Just somehting about it 😛

  • I think I’m getting a little slap-happy with this page because this is exactly what I was looking for when I came to BlogClan 😛
    What do you all think about Pinestar’s decision to leave ThunderClan? On one hand, he abandoned his Clan, his wife(?), and his young children. That’s pretty messed up…. But on the other hand, Pinestar was *old.* Everybody who he had grown up with, all his closest friends were dead. He had been told to kill his own child, and he could tell… nobody. He had no one to confide in. He couldn’t tell Shanty or Jake either, because they wouldn’t understand, because StarClan is specific to Clan life. Additionally, he felt responsible for Shanty’s death. He saw the hole she left in her home as an opening for him. He could escape the overwhelming weight of his son’s destiny AND he could feel his guilt over Shanty’s death lifted.
    So I don’t know. I think Pinestar isn’t blameless, but he definitely had his reasons.

    • 🌻🐜AmberSneeze🐜🌻 (Amberpaw) | Amber Eyes of Moth | (Moth, Mothy, any variation of Amber or Moth) Has never committed arson in the RiverClan camp.. 🔥 says:

      I’d have just stepped down. I wonder how Piney died, tho

      • Probably old age. Though, some of the reasons he left completely rather than step down are a) so he wouldn’t have to be there for any more funerals and b) so he didn’t have to see Tigerkit grow up to end his Clan. Also, he did consider turning back to be an elder! But ultimately, he didn’t want to watch any more from his Clan die, especially at the paws (ha) of his son.

      • Yeah I feel like it is sort of ignored how, for the vast majority of his life, he gave his heart and soul for his Clan. But the weight of it all just crushed him. Honestly I find Pinestar kind of relatable.

    • Thank you for raising this question, it’s one that interests me. Another factor is that Pinestar became sort of a pacifist—an awkward situation for the leader of a warrior clan. As time went on, he was sickened by the endless battles and bloodshed with RiverClan over Sunning Rocks. He eventually let RiverClan retake Sunning Rocks without a fight.

      As you say, he found comfort with the kittypets that he could not find with his own clanmates. Perhaps he was not cut out to be a leader. Perhaps Doestar made a bad choice when she made him deputy—it happens sometimes.

      • Yes! I love Pinestar’s novella because at first, Pinestar *lived* for his Clan. When he was deputy, and in his earlier years of being leader, the Clan was his pride and joy. He threw himself into the thick of battle for his Clanmates. But as time went on, he saw another way of life, was forced to watch all his friends and family die, and started to wonder about how good Clan life is. It raises some really interesting questions.

    • I’m okay with Pinestar. He was a wonderful deputy, and then leader, and I think he did deserve a break after having such a long leadership. I don’t think what he did with Leopardfoot was okay but he was also really stressed about how StarClan was pressuring him to kill Tigerkit, so I think it was pretty fair for him to just be able to leave and spend the rest of his life as a kittypet. His view on kittypets is also pretty cool as well 🙂 I like him because he didn’t think they were “weak” like everyone else in the Clans!

    • 🌿 Echowillow || Willow || She/her || Echo of Whispering Willow || Mentor to the incredible Maplepaw 🌱 says:

      I personally quite like Pinestar and I think he was right to leave ThunderClan. He gets a lot of hate for leaving his mate and kit, but his relationship with Leopardfoot didn’t seem genuine in the first place. I saw it as him being pressured into a relationship to show the ideal to his clan, and I distinctly remember a scene where someone said something to him along the lines of “You seem to be taking an interest in Leopardfoot” even though the two had barely interacted. Also, he didn’t want to witness his own kin causing the downfall of the clans and having to potentially war against his own son. Because Tigerstar I was Pinestar’s blood, ThunderClan may have also turned against Pinestar or accuse him of not wishing to harm his son, which would have been a horrible position to be in. I also think he truly loved Shanty, but he couldn’t mourn her death while helping his clan. And he became a pacifist, and hated the idea of war which is a fairly integral part to the society of warriors

      That was a bit long, but overall I think he was old and wanted to live a peaceful life, so was right to leave ThunderClan 🙂

  • Has anyone else noticed how leader names were never repeated? (Excluded Tigerstars and Owlnose), even crossing clans. Like how tc had oakstar and rc had deputy oakheart? There were so many other close calls like Whitestar and Whitestorm. I’m making an article about that!

  • Does anyone else DESPISE clear sky? And HATE Tom? DoTc is the most well-written arc of all, I hated Gray Wing for a bit for not loving Turtle Tail sooner because she had Tom’s kits and that just felt wrong, and Clear Sky? When the forest fire happens, even staying in Gray Wings camp, he acted soooo IMPORTANT in front of thunder, that’s just messed up, and when Thunder came with him, he saw the true side of Clear Sky, but reading Clear’s POV, it kind of made me understand him, but it was all thrown away at some point in the chapter. AND. THREE. MATES. This may seem like an over-the-top topic but did he care how BRIGHT STREAM would feel? How STORM would feel? how THUNDER would feel when his ex was dated by his father? I’m so sorry for the rant, but this was the best arc of all, praise for the Erins 👏👏

    • I despise Clear Sky as well, and hate Tom. I don’t like any of Clear Sky’s romances, they don’t seem real. But I don’t blame Gray Wing for not loving Turtle Tail sooner. He just had to leave his mother and tribemates behind and he didn’t know if he would ever see them again., just to chase after his little brother! This was definitely one of the best arcs.

    • I love DoTC because of how complex it is. It deals with several deep topics like survivor’s guilt, grief, bloodlines, abandonment issues, moving on… all that jazz. It showed how family is messy, and ultimately you *choose* your family. Adoptive parents are real parents! It’s ok to walk away from a relationship, and it’s ok to cut off contact with a parent. You can forgive somebody while still not really wanting a relationship anymore. I think DoTC actually showcases all this pretty well, for a middle-grade fantasy series about cats 😛

    • Yesss I love DotC!! But it must’ve been pretty traumatic for Clear Sky. All he really wanted other than to make his Clan powerful and strong was to have a family. But he lost Bright Stream, leaving a permanent mark on him, then met Storm, and lost her as well, but finally found Star Flower, and took that chance to raise a family with his new mate. I’m sure both Bright Stream and Storm just want Clear Sky to be happy, even if it means having a different mate. 🙂

    • ClearSky/SkyStar was obviously the worst of the original five leaders. His harsh, authoritarian rule repelled many other cats, including his second mate, Storm, and his son, Thunder, He had many characteristics in common with later bad leaders, e.g., Brokenstar.

      1. He was the first cat to set borders and fight to protect them.

      2. He was the first cat to start a battle in which other cats were killed.

      3. His policy of allowing only healthy, able bodied cats in his group was remarkable for its cruelty. Expelling his own brother, Jagged Peak after he was injured, and sending another sick cat into the forest to die is a low in behavior among cats anywhere in the series.

      He seemed to have reformed a little after the battle when the dead rose and gave the survivors a stern talking to, but he never completely abandoned his authoritarian tendencies. It was said somewhere in DotC that he was acting out of fear, that having seen his little sister Fluttering Bird die of starvation in the mountains, he never wanted to see that happen to any cat under his control, but that cannot justify his actions.

      Tom, on the other hand, was just a jerk.

  • I want to address any Millie haters who may read this:

    I have read many posts here and elsewhere in which people said they hated Millie. I have asked sometimes for an explanation, but have never received one. I don’t see what there is to dislike, let alone hate, about this character.

    To summarize: She gave up her comfortable life as a kittypet, with a human who loved her, to go with Graystripe on a journey to a place and a way of life she knew nothing about. She kept him going when despair would otherwise have overwhelmed him. She learned the necessary hunting and fighting skills to become a ThunderClan warrior and adapted successfully to clan life, and was a mother to three kits. Some may object to the fact that she refused to take a warrior name, but she is neither the first nor the last cat to do that. She became somewhat obsessive about Briarlight’s health after her accident, but what mother wouldn’t react that way? She is, on the whole, a relatively minor character outside the Graystripe’s Adventure graphic novel series, where she is central. At the point where I currently am in my reading (Squirrellflight’s Hope), she has become a typical grumpy elder. I’m just not seeing a reasonable cause for hatred.

    With Mille, Grasytripe knew peace and contentment that he never had nor could have had with Silverstream. That relationship was doomed from the beginning, even if she hadn’t died in kitting. I knew from the moment that they first hooked up that it would end in tragedy, like Romeo and Juliet. Graysripe and Millie’s relationship was not like the torrid, youthful affair with Silverstream. It was a more steady, lasting love.

    I leave you with Graystripe’s words to and about Millie: “…I couldn’t have made it here without you. You saved my life, but more than that, you saved my soul. You found me when I was lost and brought me back to who I really was.”

    • I’m rather indifferent on Millie but I’ve skimmed enough articles and read enough comments over the years to get a general sense of the arguments made against her. The main issue that people have with Millie is her treatment of Briarlight because there are some moments where her fretting takes a backseat to ableism. The series in general has an issue with ableism, where a lot of cats with disabilities aren’t treated well or have their disabilities highlighted in a way that is not productive or helpful, both to the characters and to readers. While, yes, people with disabilities cannot perform some tasks as well as able people, life finds a way. Warriors, however, does not tend to portray their characters with disabilities in the same light and Briarlight is no exception. Millie’s worry over Briarlight’s health is justified to a certain extent because as you said, most mothers would react in a similar way.

      • On the other hand, Millie’s obsession in the face of the trustworthy words of Briarlight and the medicine cats regarding Briarlight’s condition on any given day and the neglect of her other children doesn’t quite sit well with people, especially when Millie reacted very negatively to the news of Briarpaw’s condition while Briarpaw could still hear her. Millie essentially says that Briarpaw no longer has a future because she can’t hunt and will never become a warrior. This is incredibly disheartening for an apprentice who has just suffered through a terrible accident to hear, and possibly even more disheartening for young readers with disabilities who might be told or reminded every day that they will never be able to have a normal life because there is something “wrong” with them when this is far from true. Of course, some of this can be excused by shock and panic in the wake of the accident and that part of her reaction is out of her control, but when there were multiple characters present who were trying to keep the situation calm to prevent Briarpaw from panicking as much, it doesn’t lean in Millie’s favour. Couple this with how Millie’s status as a background character in the main series means that most of her time in the spotlight is related to her fretting over Briarlight and you get a recipe for Millie’s treatment of Briarlight being her main defining trait in the eyes of the fandom.

      • I don’t know how you deal with ableism in the world of Warrior Cats. Unlike humans, cats have a very limited number of “career paths.” One can either be a warrior or a medicine cat. That’s about it. And a clan typically has only one medicine cat and maybe an apprentice. ThunderClan is unusual in having three full medicine cats. So what life path is available to a cat who is not physically fit to be a warrior and is not one of the few chosen to be a medicine cat?

        Brightheart overcame the limitation of her missing eye and became a successful warrior, with Cloudtail’s help. Whitekit, who was born deaf, was killed by a hawk, so the clan never had to deal with his condition. Jayfeather, born blind, was bitter about not being able to be a warrior, but his other senses were acute and he became a great medicine cat. Longtail, when he lost his vision, became an elder, though he was relatively young. Briarlight was different from all of these in that she became disabled by an accident just as she was about to become a warrior. Jayfeather was able to develop a routine that kept her alive for many seasons, but there really was nothing that she could do to overcome her disability. She sometimes helped out in the medicine den, sorting herbs, but that was about her only useful activity. I know that Deadfoot, in WindClan, became a successful warrior and later clan deputy, but I don’t know much else about his story.

        As an aside, I think the Erins, in writing Briarlight’s character, underestimated what a two-legged cat can do. For several years, I have been following the story of Cassidy, the two-legged miracle kitten, at TinyKittens. Briarlight is regularly described as “dragging” herself across the clearing. Cassidy doesn’t “drag” himself anywhere—he leaps, he flies, he climbs. Just go to YouTube and search for “TinyKittens Cassidy miracle kitten” to see what he can do. I think Briarlight should have been able to do the like.

        • And that is why I maintain that Warriors doesn’t tend to properly represent that life finds a way. Cassidy is able to do incredible things for an animal with a condition like that, but Briarlight is written to move in very limiting ways for years of her life. Certainly, she faced a very unique condition (we’ve only ever heard of one other cat who had a similar accident and that was through word-of-mouth) that limited her in ways that ThunderClan was never exposed to before, but it poses questions that currently nobody really has an answer for. Why wouldn’t Briarlight be allowed to become a medicine cat? If it’s just that she was on the cusp of becoming a warrior, then Cinderpelt became a medicine cat apprentice early in her apprenticeship when she was injured by a car, Spottedleaf became a medicine cat apprentice during her warrior apprenticeship after learning the truth about Thistleclaw, and Yellowfang was already a warrior when she decided to become a medicine cat. Briarlight would even give ThunderClan a slight advantage if she had become one – there would always be a medicine cat in the camp regardless of external events that required the ThunderClan medicine cats to leave, such as aiding another Clan or the half-moon meetings. It would’ve been a difficult journey to go to the Moonpool for Briarlight to be recognized by StarClan as a medicine cat, but hardly a worthless journey. ThunderClan isn’t opposed to having three medicine cats when Alderheart joined them, and Briarlight herself seemed to take at least some joy out of helping Jayfeather out in the medicine cat den. Why not let her pursue that fully? Being able to help her clanmates in such a way not only is a huge boon to the Clan, but also would’ve done wonders for Briarlight herself, as she had agonized in the early days of her accident about her lack of ability to help her Clan as a warrior.

          • 💮🌸Skye🌸💮 [Skypaw//Skymist//Misty Moon On A Fareway Sky//Has two fanfics going on! Check out Shinign Shadows and my newest: Shadowed Path!] says:

            Yeah, I agree with you, Embix! And I think Briarlight would actually ENJOY being a medicine cat 🙂

        • Deadfoot is a bit of a different issue. It has very little to do with his physical ability to become a warrior, but rather his name. He was originally named Hopkit because of the twisted paw he was born with, but Heatherstar renames him during his apprentice ceremony to Deadpaw. While Deadpaw takes it positively and graciously, some readers were left a little uneasy because it would mean that his name would be highlighting his disability with a word that has negative connotations. Every time someone would refer to him, it would be with a little signal saying that something about him is wrong when that may not necessarily be true and certainly was not under his control.

          Of course, dealing with albeism in the series is a complicated issue. With the world that the Erins have created in the first arc and built upon ever since, they have somewhat limited themselves to the ways that they can explore certain topics. Is it a blanket excuse for not exploring it at all? I would say that it is not. There is plenty of room for them to show just how incredible some cats can be despite their differences and plenty of ways that they can do so that aren’t damaging to the amazing progress that people with disabilities have made in being recognized as normal people and not anything less. Warriors may be a series about cats, but it is a series that has touched so many people in the formative periods of their lives and the characters, quite often, feel more human than they do cat-like. When they have that opportunity to influence how a child will see the world and the people living in it, I think that it’s everyone’s duty to make sure that that influence is as positive as it can be, as opposed to damaging or hurtful.

      • Millie didn’t spoil Briarlight. While she might not have been the best mother, she was just extremely worried and wanted to give Briarlight the care she deserved. Bumblestripe and Blossomfall were fine and healthy so Millie was more worried about Briarlight at the moment. If you’re talking about how Millie also treated Blossomfall after going into the tunnels with Ivypool, I think she reacted the way she did because she was probably extremely scared that Blossomfall would’ve permanently injured herself as well and was annoyed when she learned that she had worried for nothing, and took that anger out on Blossomfall. We often say things we don’t actually mean when we’re angry, so that was probably what had happened. :))

    • Sunflight || Sun Flying Across the Sky || Sunni, Sunno || She/They || Mentor to the Incredible Blackpaw! says:

      I agree that Millie was great. She did get a bit carried away with Brairlight, but any mother would. She also was a great mate to Graystripe in my opinion.

    • HISSSSSSSSS
      I understand your arguement 🙂

      But Millie treated Briarlight very awfully and was a bit of a brat. She neglected Blossomfall and Bumblestripe and was just so annoying.

      ALSO SILVERSTREAM WAS PERFECT AND GRAYXSILVER IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN GRAYXMILLIE. GrayXMillie lasted longer but even when Millie was giving birth all Graystripe could think about was Silverstream.

      And Silverstream is prettier, smarter, kinder and 10000000000000000000000000000% more awesome than Millie. (yes, I did just turn this into a Millie Vs Silverstream sorry about that)

      • How did Millie treat Briarlight awfully…? And while Silverstream may be prettier, Millie and Silverstream are both equally smart, and Silverstream could be quite rude sometimes. Millie was really friendly to Graystripe and sympathized with him when they first met, and when she joined ThunderClan she was always quite kind. (Please don’t kill me Silv 😛)

        • 💮🌸Skye🌸💮 [Skypaw//Skymist//Misty Moon On A Fareway Sky//Has two fanfics going on! Check out Shinign Shadows and my newest: Shadowed Path!] says:

          She said and implied that Briarlight’s life was worthless now that she was injured 🙁 That really made me dislike her. I UNDERSTAND what she was going through and how hard that was, but I don’t think she was a good mother. Her portrayal is realistic, but not sympathetic.

  • Is it just me who noticed that Frogleap hasn’t gotten enough attention? He has one of the cutest names, he was super kind, hopeful, and didn’t become another Ashfur. I definitely think he is a character that deserves more love! He’s my favorite character and I cried when I found out he died. I knew it would happen at some point, but it was too soon 😭.
    Also, how is Mosspelt still living?

  • For the people who have read Pinestar’s Choice, what do you think about Shanty, and her perspective on how Clan life is related to kittypet life? Like how they’re loyal to their Twolegs and how Shanty says that it’s like the Pinestar’s old loyalty to his Clan 🙂
    I really admire Shanty for her perspective <33

  • Do you like Silverstream?

    I adore her. She is such a special and different character. She isn’t a generic bubbly she-cat or a grumpy one. She’s sarcastic, kind and won’t back down from what she believes in. She isn’t a Maru Sue either – she has made mistakes before. And her being spoiled isn’t her fault btw-
    Silverstream was also a heroine, saving Graystripe from the river. GrayXSilver was what started forbidden romances and was so fresh and exciting and new.

    Silverstream is perfect periodt

    • 🌻🐜AmberSneeze🐜🌻 (Amberpaw) | Amber Eyes of Moth | (Moth, Mothy, any variation of Amber or Moth) Has never committed arson in the RiverClan camp.. 🔥 says:

      Silverstream is ok, but I despise Graystripe as much as the average warriros fan hates Appledusk

        • 🌻🐜AmberSneeze🐜🌻 (Amberpaw) | Amber Eyes of Moth | (Moth, Mothy, any variation of Amber or Moth) Has never committed arson in the RiverClan camp.. 🔥 says:

          I personally think he’s a bad friend after into the wild, and he betrayed both Clans he was in. He also gave up his kits (and himself) when Bluestar was willing to fight for them. Also I just have a bad feeling about the guy…

    • Wait if you say Silverstream is perfect aren’t you saying she’s a Mary-Sue? 😛 /lh
      I like her! Her bond with Feathertail is really sweet <3 And she was a hero from saving Graystripe from the river 😀 She did act like a bit of a brat in Leopardstar's Honor tho, but I guess it was for Graystripe so… But weren't there many forbidden romances before that? like… Blue x Oak, and Fire x Spotted (med cat and warrior), to name a few? But I guess if you mean first cross-Clan relationship introduced in the series, it was the first one.

      • Blue X Oak was a real forbidden relationship—it was consummated at a litter of kits resulted. Fire X Spotted was not. There was attraction between them, but nothing forbidden actually happened, and Spotted Leaf was killed not long after Fireheart joined the clan.

    • She’s kinda meh tbh(sorry Silv please don’t violently murder me with a chainsaw).

      Her character has always seemed kind of spoiled and pretentious to me- in the manga after Crookedtar’s SE, for example, she is shown to be brushing off her father’s frankly sensible advice about how seeing Graystripe could potentially hurt her- and next thing you know, she’s dead.

      And in Leopardstar’s Honor, its more of the same behavior, with her being a brat and generally acting superior to everyone else.

    • Shadeleap (she/her) | Shades, Shade, Shadey | Shade lit up by Leaping Flames | Mentor to the amazing Sandbreeze! <33 | Running for SW! says:

      I love her! Like you said, she has a developed personality and she’s awesome

    • 💮🌸Skye🌸💮 [Skypaw//Skymist//Misty Moon On A Fareway Sky//Has two fanfics going on! Check out Shinign Shadows and my newest: Shadowed Path!] says:

      I really like Silverstream! I feel like she got very little time onscreen so she isn’t in my favorites list or anything, but I definitely love her sass 😛

  • Hi guys! i’m a little bit bored, so if you want you can just reply to this comment and describe you’re warriors oc! btw, i’m new so yeah…. i don’t have anything posted yet. but most importantly: Have a great day!”

    Greetings, FRECKLED’DEER.”

  • something that i often wonder is whether it’s ok for one to enjoy the warriors series while also being against the many problematic themes that are in the series (spottedleaf’s heart, blatant ableism, closely related mates, etc)

    ive posted about this a couple of times in the past on different pages but now that this page exists i though i would post about it here

  • hello, everyone! cool new page. i hope you all have been having a good day so far. 😁
    ok, question time! what do you make of antpelt’s relationship with ivypool, and/or the character in general? 🙂

    • 💮🌸Skye🌸💮 [Skypaw//Skymist//Misty Moon On A Fareway Sky//Has two fanfics going on! Check out Shinign Shadows and my newest: Shadowed Path!] says:

      I’m neutral on him! And I don’t really see any relationship between him and Ivypool, but it’s been a while I’ve read OOTS.

      • okay! by relationship i mean do you find them friends, enemies, or actually, well, having a relationship 😆

        antpelt’s my favorite warriors character, and i think he was a really good cat in life, but in death he morally struggled a little 😛 and i think he truly loved ivypool! (there was another cat antpelt knew, named swallowtail or something, whom dovewing thought was antpelt’s mate, but one of the erins clarified and said nope)

        • 💮🌸Skye🌸💮 [Skypaw//Skymist//Misty Moon On A Fareway Sky//Has two fanfics going on! Check out Shinign Shadows and my newest: Shadowed Path!] says:

          Yeah, that’s what I meant ^^ I see them just kinda being there and not really interacting prior to his death. Then Ivy can’t start a relationship with a corpse 😛

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