Need a break from the hubbub of the rest of the blog? Or perhaps you just want a quiet page to discuss Warriors in depth. In any case, feel free to unwind in the Elders’ Den!
[a very fluffy grey cat with thick fur around its neck, long whiskers, and yellow eyes stares into the camera]
What exactly is this page, then? It’s a place to discuss, in detail, particular aspects of the Warriors series – to pick apart ideas and themes that perhaps either get overlooked elsewhere or require a nuanced perspective. And more broadly, it’s a quiet refuge away from the bustle of the rest of the blog!
If there is a more serious subject you’d like to discuss within the Warriors universe, remember to remain respectful of what people are saying and to handle the topics in question with the necessary care and respect. Does this mean this is a page solely for discussing controversial topics? Of course not, but rather if they appear, the mods ask that everyone involved remain calm and thoughtful – should a discussion verge too far into argument territory, we may step in and put an end to it.
[a ginger-and-white tabby cat squeezes its eyes closed as it licks its pawpad]
If you’re looking for a general place to talk about Warriors but you feel like your comment doesn’t quite fit the Elder’s Den, check out the Sunning Patch!
Recently I commented on a post about someone saying why a leader named Hailstar when they don’t know what hail is? Wrong, they do. In Crookedstar’s promise he was hiding in a shed or something while he said hailstones were coming down, on the mission to find Sparrow. So yes, they do know what hail is. I just wanted to point that out.
Omg I am so wrong it was Tallstar’s Revenge I am super sorry guys!
Ohhh ok I haven’t read Tallstar’s Revenge for a LONG time!! A better example could’ve been Appleshine, or Plumstone. 🙂
Part 1 because too long
Hello elders! I’ve come to change your nests and bite off your ticks! 😛
Jokes apart, what do you all think about the sexism in Warriors? It’s not all that different from society, but the Warriors fandom goes crazy with bias. A few things:
-The she-cats taking new mates after break-ups or former mate’s death. Something that bothers me a lot on the fandom is Palebird. I haven’t read Tallstar’s Vengeance, but some of the comments I’ve read on articles are just plain…Wrong. I’ve seen people claiming that she’d a bad cat because she took another mate after Sandygorse’s death, and it drives me crazy!! Like, people do that in real life – and it’s perfectly okay! She’s having a chance at happiness! I didn’t read TV so I don’t know how good of a mother she is, but people hating her simply for taking another mate after her mate’s death is, in my opinion, harmful. Also, it’s suuuuuuch a bad thing when the SHE-CATS do it, but remember Whitestorm? And all those cats in Dawn Of The Clans? Not to add Blizzardwing, the tom who CHEATED on his mate?
so true honestly
(Part 1 of 2)
On the surface, this seems like a simple question: every cat/person deserves love and companionship with a suitable partner, if they are fortunate enough to find one. And this includes those who have lost a partner, whether from death or a breakup. When I hear about readers disliking a character for taking a new partner after a death, I suspect that this is the result of some youthful romantic ideas held by readers who are too young to have had much experience with these matters in real life (not surprising where the target audience is supposed to be readers aged 8–12). Perhaps they think it noble to mourn a lost love for the rest of one’s life and unfeeling to get over the loss and get on with one’s life.
On second thought, though, I wonder whether some have experienced something similar in their own lives, that is, the loss of a parent from death or divorce, followed by the appearance of a new partner in the role of a step-parent. If so, they may have resented that new partner and wanted their life to go back to the way it was before. They may be projecting that experience onto the characters in the books. I have experienced this myself in the role of the new partner, being met with hostility and resentment from a child, and I can tell you, it is not any easy situation.
(Part 2 of 2)
In the specifics of the Palebird case, she was already mourning the death of Finchkit, Talltail’s sister, when her mate, Sandgorse, was killed in a tunnel collapse. A few moons later, Palebird took a new mate, Woollytail, and eventually bore a litter of kits with him. Talltail is not happy about this (plus, he has his own set of complex issues with his late father). This is one of several factors that cause him to leave his clan and go rogue for a time.
By the way, I strongly recommend Tallstar’s Revenge to you (or any reader). Despite the title, it is not mainly a story about revenge, but is the story of how young Talltail has to leave his clan to discover who he really is and where he belongs.
Ty! I never thought about the possibility of projecting the stepparent situation into the books, but it’s a very interesting perspective! (Please don’t stereotype the target audience as naive tho, since I’m one of them 😛
I hope I’m not naive I hope I’m not naive I hope I’m not naive Okay I might be naive) I feel like people might project other situations in real life. I can sympathize with many characters – Sunbeam in special – and their struggles, which just makes the series richer, but I know not every person will see it that way!Also, you really ARE an elder in the Blog. Wow.That is so true. Plenty of toms took a new mate after their former mate died (like Clear Sky and Gray Wing)
Exactly :D!
Part 1/2 Omg yes! Sunstar literally said to Bluestar, then bluefur, while she was pregnant “I had hopes that you would become my deputy, but it seems Starclan has chosen a different path for you” Like, just because she has kits she cant be dep? UGH! Oh, and also, take thunderclan for instance, leadership wise
TPB: 50% Female leaders (Bluestar) 50% Male leaders (Firestar)
TNP: 0% Female leaders, 100% Male leaders (Firestar)
POT: 0% Female leaders, 100% Male leaders (Firestar)
OOTS: 0% Female leaders, 100% Male leaders (Firestar, Bramblestar)
DOTC: 0% Female leaders, 100% Male leaders (Thunderstar)
AVOS: 0% Female leaders, 100% Male leaders (Bramblestar)
TBC: 25% Female leaders (Squirrelflight, temporary) 75% Male leaders (Bramblestar, Graystripe (temporary), Lionblaze (temporary))
ASC: 0% Female leaders, 100% Male leaders (Bramblestar)
2/2
What about deps?
TPB: 0% Female deputies, Male deputies 100% (Redtail, Lionheart, Tigerclaw, Fireheart, Whitestorm)
TNP: 0% Female deputies, 100% Male deputies (Graystripe)
POT: 0% Female deputies, 100% Male deputies (Brambleclaw)
OOTS: 0% Female deputies,100% Male deputies (Brambleclaw)
DOTC: 0% Female deputies, 100% Male deputies (Lighting Tail)
AVOS: 100% Female deputies (Squirrelflight) 0% Male deputies
TBC: 50% Female deputies (Squirrelflight, Bristlefrost) 50% Male deputies (Berrynose, Lionblaze (Temporary))
ASC: 100% Female deputies (Squirrelflight) 0% Male deputies
Ok, so you probably thought that that is a lot more female deputies, but, it’s not. It’s two.
Also…
Out of forty-seven mentors from TPB to now, twenty-two of them are Female. Now, that isn’t a very big difference. However, one, Speckletail, is said to have been an unofficial mentor, as well as the issue of Blossomfall. In The Apprentice’s Quest, she is said to have mentored Hollytuft, however, in Bramblestar’s Storm, it is said that Cloudtail was her mentor. I am still not sure which one is canon and which one is an error, so if you know, please say so in the comments!
Agreed! Argh, we need more female leaders ThunderClan, and not just Squilstr/Squilfstr.
100% true
Part 2
-Reedshine. A lot of people hate her because she, uh, “stole Appledusk from Mapleshade”? Those people casually forget she was CHEATED ON as well. She didn’t even KNOW about Maple and Apple’s romance – and the cheating was Appledusk’s fault. She was expecting his kits but didn’t know ANOTHER she-cat was expecting his kits as well, on a different Clan. And she just went and forgave him. Now the Fandom hates her for it?!
-Is “tom actually accepting that the she-cat they like does NOT share his feelings” really that much of a wonder? They’re SUPPOSED to do that! It’s not like Bluestar or any other cat can just wave their tails and suddenly love Thrushpeltish-cats back. And of course a lot of toms in the books are like “I’m going to burn her kits to death and I’m going to yell at her forever because she deosn’t like me back and that is perfectly fine~”. And there’s this whole “if he fights enough he gets the girl” thing in the movies that really annoys me. Feelings aren’t something we can just turn on and off! And worse, I don’t see anyone saying “OMS, Bristlefrost and Sunbeam and Spottedleaf and SO MANY OTHER SHE-CATS are so awesome and underrated because they accepted that the tom they love doesn’t love them back!” Nooooo, I don’t! It’s apparently only TOMS that make an effort to do that despite Bristle and Sun really struggling about ti but NOT burning Stem’s and Blaze’s kits to death a million years later. Bristlefrost actually volunteered to help SPOTFUR raise STEMLEAF’S kits, and no one goes like “she’s so sweet and underrated” despite her and Thrushpelt doing basically the same thing.
Ty for hearing my rant! What do you think about this topic?
great to hear your thoughts! here are some of mine:
1. cats taking new mates- i don’t think this should really matter either, especially while the mate is living, because cats like tom and, like you said, blizzardwing, are toxic. women/wives can be toxic and abusive in real life (and in warriors) too, that’s for sure- johnny depp trial taught us that. i think people tend to forget that men aren’t always the ones doing the abusing. if a new person helps get away from that, or the death of your former loved one, then you probably do love them.
2. never heard this side of the story before, that’s very interesting. i used to think reedshine and freckleface were the exact same person, lol. but reedshine is NOT a nice person. she refused to help mapleshade when she KNEW her kits were dead and she would be a rogue now. she’s loud and kind of annoying. she threatens mapleshade in a way that she knows will cause her pain (mentioning her and appledusk’s kits). rather than ending her life after appledusk’s death, she wants perchpaw to let mapleshade wander off and die alone. that may seem nice, but mapleshade is in so much pain and shock that she’s losing almost all of her blood and can’t actually feel the pain or see clearly. so don’t hate reedshine because she was cheated on, but hate her because of a lot other things.
3. yes, this is a bit of a problem in warriors, but i think you really can’t blame the series for the community. i do think that bumblebutt’s behavior was REALLY uncalled for, and that’s not even bringing up ol’ finny.
I agree with your other points but disagree with Reedshine.
Firstly, saying that she’s “loud and annoying” is a bit…. generic, isn’t it? Plenty of good cats in the series are loud and annoying- Squirrelflight, for example. Also, keep in mind that this is a pregnant person we’re talking about- of course they’re going to be louder and more annoying than usual because they are having a baby.
Also, why should she have to help Mapleshade? This random ThunderClan cat who showed up on her clan’s territory with a couple dead kits claiming to be the mate of her mate? If I were in that situation, I would not have helped her either. I’m simply not a good-hearted saint, and I doubt Reedshine is, either.
“She threatens Mapleshade in a way that she knows will cause her pain” Yes, right after Mapleshade brutally killed the cat she loved in front of her.
“She wants Perchpaw to let Mapleshade wander off and die alone” This is an act of mercy- instead of killing Mapleshade right there, which imo Reedshine had plenty of justification to do, she lets her wander off and potentially get medical treatment for her wounds.
Also, this sentence contradicts itself. “so much pain and shock that she’s losing almost all of her blood and can’t actually feel the pain” So much pain, and then later can’t actually feel the pain.
I agree ^^
2. I don’t have anything other than Blazestrike to say ^^ But honestly, hearing someone who hates Reedshine for OTHER reasons that aren’t “she stole Appledusk from Mapleshade” is pretty relieving.
3. Agreed, just a correction because I said the “Warriors fandom goes crazy with bias”, so I wasn’t blaming the series for it ^^ Although the series does help imply it.
Ty for replying with your thoughts :D!
Bramblebutt lol
Omg I love this rant Skye!
But I would like to point out a few things.
Not all the she-cats get hate for taking another mate. Squilf for example!
She loved BrambleCLAW but then something happened I forgot what and she started hanging with Ashfur. And wasn’t there like a theory that Squirrelflight was expecting Ashfurs kits? But they were stillborn or something. And the only reason Squirrelflight gets hate is because she’s apparently “loud and annoying and stuck up etc.”
Dovewing
Dovewing gets hate because of her attitude and secret meetings with Tigerpaw/heart. Altho I agree about the attitude, so many other cats met with cats from another Clan. Bluefur, Graystripe, Silverstream, Oakheart, Raggedstars mother (I forgot who) and SO MANY OTHERS> Altho I don’t like Dovewing, this is a bad way to hate on her.
AND, Bristlefrost, Sunbeam and the other she-cats that accepted that the tom doesn’t love them back eventually found a new tom. Bristlefrost loved Rootspring and Sunbeam is with Nightheart. I don’t think they’re underrated. I think there’s more hate on Bristle because of her cheery personality that is apparently annoying. I haven’t seen any hate on Sunbeam, but my guess (if it starts or is ongoing) is that she changed Clans. SO MANY OTHER CATS CHANGED CLANS. TAWNYPELT doesn’t get any hate for doing that because she’s apparently ‘thoughtful’ for going to live with her father. AN EVIL VILLIAN HELLOOOO.
And Reedshine is a totally different story. Like Blazey pointed out, wouldn’t she have threatened Maple NOT because of her backstory with Apple but because she literally killed her mate in front of her eyes. I honestly would’ve done the same thing.
Sorry if this seemed rude, it’s just what I think. I still love your rant tho!
Ty! I wasn’t talking about Squilf, because she was never Ashfur’s mate (although there is hate on her because she apparently “used” him? Anyone mind explaining that to me?) I wasn’t talking about Dovewing either!
I never said Bristlefrost and Sunbeam were underrated, I meant it as people say those things about Thrushpelt (despite him getting LOTS of love). I never talked about there being hate on Sun and Bristle, I talked about there being so much love on the toms who did the same thing they did, which shows double standards.
Also, it wasn’t me who talked about Reedshine, it was Adderpaw, and Blazey replied to them! /lh
No, you didn’t talk about Squilf or Dovewing so thats why I mentioned them Skye. And I was agreeing with what Blazey said. I know perfectly well that Adderpaw talked about reedshine. Thank you very much. And Thrushpelt does get alot of love for being one of the more sensible toms. And he and Bluestar certainly don’t get hate for disguising Mistykit Mosskit and Stonekit as Thrushpelts kittens.
Just wondering Polarpaw, do you hate Tawnypelt? I don’t think Tawnypelt deserves any hate for going to live with the her father. In ThunderClan many of her Clanmates didn’t trust her at all since she was Tigerstar’s daughter. She was angry at this and she decided to move to ShadowClan, where her father was, since she knew he would trust her enough instead of criticizing her every move. And while it wasn’t exactly “thoughtful” of her to move to ShadowClan, she had a good reason to move to live with an evil murderer, and I don’t think she should get any hate for that. 🙂
I don’t hate Tawny! In fact, I am a supporter of her! I’m just saying people hate on other cats for switching Clans but Tawny doesn’t get tons of it (At least not that I know of) because she switched. I am very glad that she doesn’t but I think that the Erins could’ve portrayed another reason for her to move than to be with an evil cat. And lots of Clanmates didn’t trust Brambleclaw as well but he didn’t move?
oh ok haha sorry for the misunderstanding <3
she did also move because she thought ShadowClan would accept her more than ThunderClan ever would, since ShadowClan viewed Tigerstar 1 as a hero. Technically, Tigerstar 1 wasn't truly evil! He just thought what he was doing was best for the Clans, but was going to use evil methods to get to them, but it doesn't make him evil. It just shows that he was ambitious enough to do anything to get what he wants. And Brambleclaw was mostly trusted since Firestar put his faith in Brambleclaw multiple times and the Clanmates saw that as a sign that he could be trusted. However, Tawnypelt constantly was facing scorn and being compared to her father, so she thought maybe in ShadowClan she could live a better life there. I don't think that makes her deserve lots of hate, since she was just moving so she could start a new life where people wouldn't think she was disloyal because of her heritage.
Great points, my wonderful app! 🙂
Lol ty Blazey! I also loved your points haha
I agree
One thing that’s not talked about enough is the sexist writing of female leaders. I’ve observed a trend, where, after a catastrophic event ensues, a female leader ‘goes mad’ or if not that, displays rather drastic, uncharacteristic behavior. This has always struck me as border-line sexist writing. It’s akin to how female characters usually fall apart after the death of a loved one, whereas males are shown to move on.
Bluestar would be a well-known example of this. After Tigerstar’s attempted murder, she completely lost herself to symptoms brought on by what is likely PTSD. She doubted the intentions of her Clanmates, on multiple occasions she openly expressed doubt about StarClan, and she displayed general erratic behavior, such as accusing WindClan of prey-stealing, joining a patrol to see her kits and more.
Then take Mystystar. After Darktail nearly destroyed RiverClan, she completely shut down RiverClan’s borders and cut off contact with the other Clans.
Leopardstar is another worthy mention. Although the primary cause of her behavior and overall illness was confirmed to be diabetes, she still illustrates the pattern-a tragic happening occurs [rather it’s nearly being killed by a deputy you trusted, or you fall ill], one which greatly impacts a given female leader, and her behavior changes drastically.
Now, I must empathize that my quarrel isn’t exactly with them showing an extraordinary amount of deep emotion. If I’d gone through what Mystystar had, I’d probably shut down too.
No, my main vendetta is that woman have historically been viewed as ‘mad and hysterical’ because they are ’emotional’, and the treatment of Bluestar, Leopardstar, and other female characters I could mention, enforce that mindset.
I have never seen a male leader go completely ‘mad’ due to some negative circumstances, so it would appear that this stereotype is being reinforced, rather consciously, or subconsciously on the part of the Erins.
I’ve never thought about it that way, but I completely agree! But I’ve never heard of Leopardstar having diabetes? And how did that affect her?
WOW
I never thought about that! Thank you SO MUCH for your comment!! Now that I think about it, barely any male leader has acted that way, the CLOSEST being Bramblestar (but he wasn’t “mad”, yhe just stepped down and wanted peace :/)
Yeah, the ‘woman being mad and histerical because they are emotional’ is a stereotype that really annoys me :/
I know right!
But Onestar did go kind of hysterical when Darktail showed up. Also I feel like leaders are mostly toms
Sunnyfall on Youtube made a video about that – there are more male leaders, more male deputies and more male medicine cats than female leaders, deputies and medicine cats!
Swift moddo! Tysm!
Wow, I’ve never really thought about this before, but I absolutely agree! 😀 It’s always like the she-cats actually love the toms enough to accept that they don’t love them back, like Bristlefrost with Stemleaf and Sunbeam with Blazefire, but the toms somehow can’t seem to accept that, like Bumblestripe with Dovewing, and Ashfur with Squirrelflight. Maybe that’s why Thrushpelt is given so much love from the fandom? Since the rest of the toms were absolute jerks about the she-cats not loving them back so Thrushpelt stands out from the other toms.
Yeah, that’s what I implied! For some reason it’s completely normal for she-cats to get over it wihtout going murder mode, but not for toms.
Mapleshade kinda went murder mode…
oh yeah good point 😛
xD
Yeah, but Mapleshade was cheated on and lost her kits, so there’s more to it. She wasn’t rejected.
OKAY. FINALLY. YES. THERE ARE ACTUALLY PEOPLE WHO HAVE MY OPINION 😀
Some peeps have asked me before why I hate Mothwing. Here we go.
Just a quick warning that I will be venting pretty hard, and this is just my opinion! This is in no way trying to offend anyone who likes Mothwing!
She’s the STUPIDEST CHARACTER TO EVER BE IN WARRIORS! She’s clingy, annoying, and she just won’t SHUT UP! I mean, GET A GRIP girl! LEAFPOOL WON’T ALWAYS BE THERE TO HELP YOU! (Cough cough, Spoiler? Cough cough) AND YOUR LIFE ISN’T OVER JUST BECAUSE YOU made ONE mistake! STOP PLAYING THE VICTIM AND STAND UP TO YOUR BROTHER! HE DOES NOT CONTROL YOU!
Sorry everyone. That was INTENSE. Anyways, what do you think about Mothwing as a character? (Don’t worry I won’t come after you; everyone has their own opinions:)
I’m okay with Mothwing. She technically was the victim in the case with Hawkfrost, and I’m not sure what mistake you were talking about, but if you’re talking about how she couldn’t help Reedwhisker when he almost drowned: First, she was probably really scared to lose her place in the Clan as a medicine cat since many cats already scorned her for being a former rogue. Second, it must’ve been hard to accept Leafpool could help more than her, since she was younger and an apprentice, and I would’ve been pretty angry at myself if I was Mothwing. But I can find her pretty annoying and overly negative lots of the time, and just how in Shadow she was all like “I told you so” to Frostpaw when she revealed to her Clan and Tigerstar 2 her secret and Mothwing wasn’t even sympathizing with the fact that Frostpaw was feeling really pressured. :))
Great point! The mistake I was talking about was in TNP. when she poisoned the elders with the water that had a drowned rabbit in it.
Ohh :3
I completely forgot about that 😛
I hate Mothwing too!! But for other reasons.
The only reason people like Mothwing is either because of Mothpool or because she was an atheist. These are… fine reasons to like her i guess but I just think that now that leafpool’s dead and she has admitted to believing in StarClan, there’s just…. not much to her. her personality changed from a really weak, insecure cat to a huge jerk in TBC and then to some strong, brave cat. She’s all over the place and I’m just so done with her
Ah yes, some one who shares my exact feelings for her.
I don’t like her. You seem to only be talking about TNP but in her later life she’s bad too and I don’t like it.
Yes, I was mostly talking about TNP:D
Also I have nothing against her being atheist. What I have against is how rude she is about it sometimes.
Agreed
I disagree. I think Mothwing is just trying really hard to please those around her, even though she is falling apart inside. I think she is a really sweet character who got caught in the crossfire of manipulative toms.
That is also a solid point!
To be fair, Hawkfrost was emotionally abusing Mothwing. It’s really easy to say “just stand up for yourself!” but in practice, it’s way harder. Hawkfrost was guilt-tripping Mothwing into thinking she was dependent on Hawkfrost, that she needed him. And if she ever wised up, he could hang the threat of blackmail over her head. If she told his secrets, he would tell hers. But the thing about emotional abuse is the guilt and doubt. She would be caught in a cycle of thinking “is he terrible? Am I overreacting? Maybe I’m the one in the one in the wrong.” Hawkfrost would know when to act nice in order to keep Mothwing dependent on him.
Yup yup I see that too
Typing in ALL CAPS is the equivalent of YELLING! Just sayin’.
yup I know that’s why I gave a small warning
She knows. Why else would she use caps? But ty for informing us Whitewhiskers
I’m neutral on Mothwing. I think she was a pretty solid character in the earlier arcs but just kinda got inconsistent as the series went on.
I also haven’t read all of TNP but I believe she was an abuse victim of Hawkfrost (at least emotionally)? Sometimes when people are emotionally abused they can become clingy ^^
I’m not an expert though
Yes, I believe that happens sometimes too
I like Mothwing! I think she was a unique character with a interesting belief and backstory, and I get really annoyed that she just threw her old personality out of the window in The Broken Code. Like Goldenbrook said, “stand up to your brother” is WAY easier said than done.
I don’t agree. Mothwing was a loyal RiverClan cat who was a great med cat. Just because she did not think StarClan was real does not mean she is not good. I feel pity for her when Mistystar makes her not a med cat for a little bit.
I think Mothwing is fine. She has a really sad backstory and she is a great medicine cat, even though she doesn’t believe in StarClan. She is also the only cat who thinks that StarClan doesn’t know everything, which I appreciate.
I’m not a big fan of Mothwing but shes alright
Good points! I liked her in the earlier arcs. She seemed like a good friend to Leafpool, just trying to be a good med cat. Then she got really mean to Shadowsight and I kind of stopped liking her.
Personally, I think Reedshine was a pretty good character. Of course, she mated with the wrong cat, but didn’t Mapleshade, too? She also didn’t turn into a crazy murderer because of it.
I don’t think it’s right to blame Reedshine because she mated Appledusk – she was completely unaware that Appledusk had also made another cat pregnant. That’s like blaming an abuse victim for getting into an abusive relationship when most of the time, they have either been manipulated or simply didn’t know their partner was abusive until they were actually together. Maybe Reedshine was rude to Mapleshade, but 1) Mapleshade was part of a different Clan that had direct rivalry with Reedshine’s Clan, and 2) Reedshine watched Mapleshade kill the cat she loved in front of her and attack an innocent apprentice. Sure, maybe it would’ve been the nicer thing to do to show Mapleshade compassion because she was grieving the loss of her kits, but Reedshine was grieving the loss of Appledusk.
Overall, I actually like Reedshine; I think she was a well-done character despite her lack of ‘screen-time’ and I don’t believe she deserved what happened to her.
What is your opinion on Reedshine?
I agree with your points. I feel like Frecklewish, Mapleshade, and Reedshine were all treated unfairly by both the authors and the fandom. I find it disgusting that characters like Ravenwing and Ashfur who unnecessarily hurt other cats with no reasoning get to go to StarClan, when Frecklewish would up in the Dark Forest for simple cowardice.
Appledusk I agree with, but Ravenwing was a young, inexperienced medicine cat who had no idea that he would hurt Mapleshade or her kits. He thought he was only doing something that would benefit his clan by telling Oakstar, and definitely didn’t deserve getting brutally murdered.
Agreed! (But I agree with Scorchmist on the rest)
Yes! He didn”t deserve getting massacred.
Neutral. She didn’t know, and she was a fine mate and warrior.
I agree. Reedshine, and also Ravenwing, are cats that people hate, but they aren’t really that bad. Appledusk and Oakstar, on the other hand, are terrible.
I used to find her as an annoying character, but now that I’ve read over what you’ve said, it actually does make sense. She was completely unaware of what her mate had done and all she was looking forward to was a life in RiverClan with the tom she loved and her kits, who she would watch grow up.
She had no idea that Mapleshade would be so angry that she would murder tons of cats because she didn’t get her life the way she wanted it to. I mean, if someone got married to the person they really loved and was expecting their child, they would have never imagined that a crazed murderer was going to get their revenge on their former mate. Nobody ever really dreams of that.
Who here thinks some of Rock’s actions are just unacceptable? To clarify I mean Rock from the tunnels in OoTs.
What particular actions are you thinking of? Rock is an enigma, IMO.
Mostly I don’t like how he has 0 empathy, 0 common sense, no sanity all he cares about is destiny. And he exhibits this in ways I don’t like like telling Jayfeather to let Flametail drowon, and when he’s mad he always makes it someone else’s fault.
Books I have not read and don’t currently plan to: Mapleshade’s Vengance (novella); Crookedstar’s Promise (SE), Onestar’s Confession (SE). Why? I know generally what the story lines of these books are, and I don’t think I would get much pleasure from reading stories where the predominant emotions are anger, hate, and grief, and a bad outcome is a foregone conclusion.
Can anyone convince me that reading these is worth my time? Do any of the characters or events have any redeeming qualities, or are they pretty much as I described above?
I am looking forward to reading Graysripe’s Vow, but I have not quite reached the point in the main arcs where the “now” portion of the book is set, and I don’t want to give myself spoilers.
I haven’t read Onestar’s Confession either (and also don’t plan to) but I have read Mapleshade’s Vengeance and Crookedstar’s Promise and while I think the former was well-written, it is mostly just a sad and controversial book.
As for Crookedstar’s Promise it. . .has been a while since I’ve read it, I’ll admit 😛 But I do remember it being a sad book with a good outcome, because Crookedstar found happiness, although I think, yeah, it was mostly just sadness and hardships throughout most of the book until the end ^^
I don’t know if this was helpful or not, and it has been a while since I’ve read either of these, but that’s what I know 😛
Thanks
Crookedstar’s Promise is by far the BEST, and I mean BEST, warriors SE.
No question about it. I would highly recommend it. It is extremely well-written, deals with serious topics like child abuse and neglect in a good way, as well as sheds light on what was formerly a minor character that is now one of my favorite cats in the series.
I agree!
YES YES YES I AGREE CROOKEDSTARS PROMISE IS LITERALLY THE BEST SE EVER MADE AND CREATED IN THE WARRIORS UNIVERSE
I 100% AGREE. I absolutely love it <3333
part 1/2
*I will not be giving spoilers but will discuss some main themes and topics of Crookedstar’s Promise.
While it’s been quite a while since I read Crookedstar’s Promise, it remains my favorite Super Edition by far. I often feel that the Warriors series has an issue with making characters that are not a main part of the story flat and they don’t stand out too much, especially from the perspective of another clan. Crookedstar was definitely one of these characters in the first series.
His story is most definitely one of grief and trauma from the very start and can be a hard read, especially already knowing what will inevitably happen to him. However, I believe it handles the more difficult issues with more grace and care than any of the other books. As has been discussed on this page, ableism is a big problem in the Warriors series, and disabilities are not always depicted very well. Cats are often casually ableist and it’s brushed off as survival of the fittest rather than confronting the actual topics at hand. In Crookedstar’s Promise, the problem is actually confronted and there are consequences and repercussions for how certain cats treat him, something I don’t believe has happened in any other book.
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My favorite aspect of the book by far is the family dynamics, both good and bad. Crookedstar’s father, Shellheart, remains one of my favorite parental figures in the books. Rainflower is deeply flawed and dislikable, but their dynamic is incredibly interesting and important to his story and motivations. His relationship with Willowbreeze is incredibly sweet and a great part of the book. A shining point of this book is that in my opinion, it fleshes out many of the side characters, even outside of their relationship with Crookedstar.
Much of Crookedstar’s motivations surround how he seeks to protect those he loves no matter the cost, which is what makes him one of my favorite characters. The book is not soul-crushing the entire time, I promise 😛 I believe it’s a worthwhile read, especially if you’re interested in some of the topics mentioned. 🙂
GOLDI!!!!!!! I haven’t seen you in a long time! Missed you <3!
(And agree with your comment!)
Hello! 😀
I agree so much! That book made me cry… I’m really emotional but still
Please read Mapleshade’s Vengeance, it’s so so good having an unreliable narrator and it makes it really interesting. And Crookedstar’s Promise is like the best super edition. Crookedstar’s Promise has grief, and anger, sure, but it also has love, and forgiveness, and realizing that it’s ok to take time for yourself. It has the characters pushing on despite grief and sorrow, and becoming better for it. It’s a really sweet book, in my opinion. It makes me laugh, AND it makes me bawl my eyes out 😀
As for Onestar’s Confession… idk I didn’t really like it 😛
Thanks for taking the time to write these detailed answers.
I haven’t read Onestar’s Confession but I loved Mapleshade’s Vengeance!
I’ve read Onestar’s Confession and I think it is super interesting, mostly because we get to see WindClan after Tallstar’s Revenge. That’s the main reason I would recommend it; WindClan is so neglected when it comes to the books.
I haven’t read Crookedstar’s Promise, but I really, really, really want to.
I have read Mapleshade’s Vegance and Onestar’s Confession. I honestly did like Onestar’s SE, since we never got to see much through his views and he was constantly hated on by his temper. I was persuaded by one article before I read his book because I didn’t really care about him that much, but reading it definitely gave a perspective into his life. There aren’t a lot of good reviews, but it definitely persuaded to like him better, even if I didn’t like the choices he made.
As for Mapleshade’s Vegenace, I really liked it. It seemed a little rushed for me since her whole story had to be squished into a novella, but she’s a really interesting villain that I wish could’ve been seen as an alive character in the main arcs. If you’re looking for a good read then I would definitely read it:)
I do think you should read Maples vengence, there is a lot of insight into her life, and i personally love crooked’s promise, but i personally am not bothered to read one’s confession
Mapleshade’s Vengeance – Okay, to be honest, this is a soap opera. I’d say it is not really worth it, unless you want to know more about other cats you may have heard being brought up while talking about Mapleshade (ie. Ravenwing, Oakstar, etc.) Most people know her story without reading it.
Crookedstar’s Promise – This is a very well written book, and I’d say it is probably worth it! It has an interesting plot and gives a bit more info on a background character. I believe that, though I have not read it in a while, it talks about how Crookedstar began his alliance with Tigerstar, which I would say is important to the story. It also has a pretty happy ending.
Onestar’s Confession – To be honest, the best part was the hardcover art. All it really did was explain why he shut himself and WindClan out from the others when Darktail came to the clans. Depending on how much you want to know, it may or may not be worth it.
What is your opinion on Bumblestripe and Tigerstar II? Who do think is better for Dovewing?
I hate both but I hate Tigerstar 2 more. Dove should be single or find a non-toxic, non-family member to get with
Bumblestripe was ok untill Dovewing rejected him. Although she was a jerk for mating with him and dumping him in the first place, he could’ve handled it better like… not having serious hate issues against her? Tigerheart/star is a TERRIBLE CAT. DUDE GOT ISSUES FR FR.
I think Dove is better single! They both treated her badly, and honestly she needed either someone else how actually respected her and didn’t use her (bring your girlfriend to a date, get information out of her and then kidnap her sister and hold her hostage. Totally normal /s) nor push her into a relationship (Wow, I’ve never seen funerals of your crush’s good friend as a romantic opportunities! How odd /s) or just stay single. Her staying single would’ve been a nice rarity in Warrior Cats!
I don’t like Bumblestripe AT ALL. He needs to learn how to take no for an answer.
Tbh it feels like the Erins only made Bumblestripe like that to give Dovewing a reason to be mates with Tigerstar again. I dislike Bumble but I HAAATE Tigerstar
I think Dovewing is better off with Tigerstar 2! Dovewing didn’t even like Bumblestripe, she was just pressured by her Clanmates into liking him and eventually managed to convince herself that she couldn’t be with Tigerstar, but she could be with Bumblestripe someday. Even tho Tigerstar was quite manipulative Dove at the beginning of their relationship, he truly cares for her and there are many times when they are shown to be supporting each other through hard times. Tigerstar always softens up to Dovewing, and they are really sweet to each other. Tigerstar 2 isn’t the best mate for Dovewing, but I do think he’s better than Bumblestripe. Bumblestripe constantly caused Dovewing to feel guilty and useless, and constantly put pressure on her to have kits when she was obviously quite uncomfortable whenever he brought up the subject.
Tbh I would say Bumblestripe is SLIGHTLY better but they’re both pretty bad.
She doesn’t need a mate!
I love Graystripe, however I will say that he was less than appealing in the Graystripe’s Adventure manga. What are your opinions on Graystripe?
I’m neutral on him! He was great as Graypaw, but he was not a present father to his second litter – at least onscreen – and he betrayed both the Clans he joined :/ But I guess he made up for it? Idk. Neutral.
I despise the guy
WHY??? jk/ i respect you views, but seriously, why?
bad friend, traitor, betrayed both of his Clans on top of that, annoying, unfunny, insufferable
he’s ok
I like Greystripe for the nostalgia, but I’m not a massive fan.
I love the gray floof ball! He’s funny, kind, charming and very caring. Although he was kinda out of the picture when Millie had Bumble Briar and Blossom
He’s okay I guess. I liked his energy, loyalty and humour, but at some point I feel like he kind of changed? But he was Silverstream’s mate so he’s cool
I love him and will forever ship him with firestar! they are so cute together
I’m not a huge fan of characters like him, tbh. I’m sort of a responsible quiet person irl, so characters who are careless jokers who don’t always take into account the emotions of others somewhat frustrate me.
I’m neutral on him, since he has his highs and lows in my opinion!
I LOVE him as an elder <3 Around the time he met Silverstream and was her mate I wasn’t the biggest fan of him, as he could be quite annoying sometimes, but as he got older, he just grew into the most likable furball ever :3 Whenever other cats got into arguments he would always be the cat to work things out, or whenever Firestar was upset he would comfort him. He’s also always hungry, which is just really funny to read about 😛 He’s definitely one of my favourite characters in Warriors!! 😀
I don’t know. He’s a good friend and super funny, but he betrayed both Clans he lived in. (I also don’t like either of his mates)
So, Graypaw is fine, but not Graysripe.
I like him and Millie in the manga though.
Yea… the graphic novel was pretty lame tbh
I loved him when he was younger but then when Millie had Briar, Blossom and Bumble he kinda disappeared. Also he betrayed both the clans he was in so…..
Hiya Elders and others!! Today I want to discuss a semi-controversial character in the warrior’s franchise…
Flametail. My lease favourite character beyond all the mindless/evil jerks…
He was the first ShadowClan POV, which was nice, but as a character, I really disliked him. He was arrogant (like when he actively sought out conflict with ThunderClan over the border issues), narrow-minded (like when he decided to ignore his dying mentor’s pleas to not shut out the other clans), but the thing that truly makes me HATE him, is his selfishness in StarClan.
Jayfeather seeks him out because he wants to appologise for not being able to save Flametail (even tho he couldn’t have, and Rock pulled him away), and to ask him to clear his name. Then, when Jayfeather begins to drown, in STARCLAN, Flametail is all like, ‘oh, sorry, you didn’t save me, so I’m not saving you, loser.’
Jayfeather, who was one of the most important prophecy cats, literally almost DIES because this one guy wants to take out his frustration at dying because he was being foolish by actually killing someone else. Flametail didn’t take into account realise that 1) Jayfeather was the only cat who tried to save him (even his clanmates didn’t try) 2) There are plenty of cats who have way younger, and poorer qualities of life that die 3) The world doesn’t revolve around him.
And the fact that the Erins did ShadowClan dirty for the 1000000 time by making him their first ever POV, and laying the foundation for modern life in ShadowClan is frustrating.
What are your thoughts on him? Maybe if you have something positive, I might change my perception of his character? Or maybe I’ve changed your thoughts? Regardless, I’d love to hear what you guys think!!
I completely agree. I have nothing positive to say about him except that he was a good medicine cat and he had a really strong bond with Dawnpelt and Tigerstar 2 🙂
I like him. He did get over that thing with Jayfeather eventually and played a crucial part in uniting the Clans and StarClan after that. Also I think it was interesting in Night Whispers how he dealt with all his issues, and I think he didn’t deal with them in the worst way, I always can’t help feeling some sympathy for the cats who get overstressed and stuff. Flametail gets too much hate I think.
I don’t mind Flametail. Both of his littermates are not great, but he’s actually alright. I mostly just like the ShadowClan POV that he gives.
But, I agree that he is very harsh toward Jayfeather.
I guess Flametail didn’t make that big an impression on me. I was sorry that he died so young and in such a senseless way, but that’s the kind of thing that happens to some cats in these books (e.g., Honeyfern being bitten by a snake). I agree with you that his treatment of Jayfeather in StarClan was obnoxious and uncalled for.
I KNOW I FREAKING BLEAKING HATE FLANETAIL FHHGJUSYB
YEAH, FLAMETAIL IS SOOO ANNOYING!!!!! Though I kinda (emphasise on kinda) like his bond with his siblings.
Some of the most pleasing moments in the books for me are those rare occasions of peace and tranquility when cats are just hanging around the camp doing nothing (usually it’s the ThunderClan camp, because so many books are T-Clan-centric). Cats eating prey together, cats sharing tongues, cats napping in the sun, kits playing in front of the nursery, medicine cats lounging in front of their den, with no serious cases to treat, the leader sitting on the high ledge, watching over the clan. It makes me want to join them and just take a nap in the sun. Pass the squirrel, please.
What are your favorite scenes?
Definitely <3
I'd say the times whenever we get to see background characters going around, doing their everyday life. Its also nice when they get to go into the spotlight for a bit, like Petaldust in Crookedstar's Promise, where she was just a background character but we got to see more of her and she's just so sweet and bubbly and amazing :3
I totally agree!!! I also live and breathe for all the romantic moments in the books. But you know the moments that make me the most joyful?
When I see ✨ Silverstream ✨
My favorite scene…Probably when Twigpaw finds her dad Hawkwing (that made me cry :,) in a good way)! But yes, I just LOVE when they are just cats going on with their normal lives.
Those rare moments when a cat is like “Oh hey!” and the other one goes “Wanna share a squirrel?” and it’s just two friends hanging out together with nothing important to do.
Is it just me that notices the Twoleg description? How the cats always refer to them as “pink skinned?” or am I just crazy and overthinking this? But honestly, I wish that Warriors could have some diversity in the humans, because I’m PRETTY sure that the Twolegs are always described as “pink skinned”. Tell me what you think :))
Yes, twolegs in the series are pretty much always pink skinned, when their color is mentioned at all. And it would be a good idea to have more diversity among twolegs (even though they are all insane).
Meh well cats are colour blind 😛 /j but yeah a diversity would be cool
Apparently real cats see mainly the blue, yellow, and green parts of the spectrum, but I think Warrior Cats, from their descriptions of their environment, see all of the colors that twolegs do.
Grrrr I never noticed that…Yeah,we need more diversity in Twolegs…
Yes, I have noticed that.
But, they live in England, maybe that’s why?
They need more Twoleg diversity tho
There are plenty of POC in the UK, though maybe not out in the countryside where the clans live.
Not always, because I distinctly remember in Pinestar’s Choice one of Shanty’s twolegs was described as “darker-skinned” than the other.
I still want more diversity, though
Oof, I never noticed that. But yeah, we do need more diversity among twolegs.
I mean Shanty’s Twolegs were African, I think. I mean they were described as being “dark-skinned.”
But yeah you’re right we need more Twoleg diversity!!
Am I the only one who is annoyed by how inconsistent StarClan is with putting cats in the DF or StarClan?
Literally sometimes I want to scream at the StarClan cats.
JUNIPERCLAW DESERVED STARCLAN YOU TURDS 😭
YES FR (TOT)
I am very annoyed with this and just rote a article about StarClan RANTING about that among other things. You’re not alone, Silvo, you’re not alone. PS. Wanna be blogFriends?
YES
AND ASHFUR DESERVED THE DF AND FRECKEWISH DESERVED STARCLAN (come on!! If there are people arguing Mapleshade-the-murderer-who-haunted-her-mate’s-descendants-forever because she should “see her kits”< why can't FRECKLEWISH see her brother?? AND father, and anyone else??) And so many evil cats got StarClanb hdbgihdhsuihgorijd grrrrr
Totally agree!!! Juniperclaw deserved better!
I don’t think StarClan in general is very well-written in the books. It’s kinda like how, when J.K. Rowling tried to expand the Harry Potter universe (disregarding everything else about her for the time being), she added things that didn’t make sense and were kinda bad, like the number of wizarding schools. I feel like, as the warriors series progressed, the initial concept of StarClan proved to be wayyyyyyyy too vague, but since it was such an important part of the series, they couldn’t really change it or do much about it. Any additions they’ve made have been bad ones (like trials to get into StarClan and reasoning for certain cats being accepted or not). In the first arc, you don’t really see much of the world outside of ThunderClan and Fireheart’s experience with it. There’s a lot that’s implied but left to the imagination. StarClan was one of those things. They were pretty mysterious and not fully explained, and for one arc, that’s totally fine and adds intrigue. But the more relevant they became, the harder it is to work them into the story in the way they were originally written, so they just end up being a bad, contradictory element.
YES! StarClan is so unfair. Ashfur is allowed there, but Juniperclaw isn’t!
No, you are not the only one. This is me everytime I remember the name Juniperclaw. You are not alone Silv.
StarClan literally debated on whether Squirrelflight and Leafpool should go to the Dark Forest and for most of the reasons they stated, they had either told them to do it or one of the cats judging had done it and gone to StarClan.
I know. Why does StarClan suddenly have a justice system?